We’ve Forgotten Our Negro League Past Part 1: Interview With Senior Writer Justice B. Hill of MLB.com
Gone and forgotten? It’s up to us to make it right and document these moments
When you read this I want you to let Justice’s words seep into your psyche. He speaks so much truth here it’s stunning for we have forgotten about our Negro League past. Do we realize the importance of the rich history we are dismissing through simple ignorance?
As I look over at a Buck O’Neil signed baseball sitting on my desk next to Mays, Reggie Jax, Reggie Smith and Bobby Thompson (damn right I want more) I think to myself that we all should be upset he didn’t get into the Hall of Fame while he was alive.
That’s simply disgusting! Every American should be upset, not just Blacks. Could you imagine what that moment would have been like? Those are the moments that inspire and spawn a new generation of athletes. His exclusion from the Hall of Fame is the reason why I snap when I feel we were wronged by a truly insignificant Vogue cover. This isn’t about bringing up race every damn time something happens just to start trouble. That’s ridiculous. I’m damn sure better than that and I hope you are as well.
Remember, the legend becomes fact if we let it.
It ain’t happening here. Trust me on that.
College basketball is officially over and the NBA is heading into the final stretch so I wanted to post something to get our heads right as baseball enters the second week of the season. I conducted this interview last year before the World Series. For some reason, I didn’t think the timing was right to post this at the time because of all the turmoil surrounding Barry Bonds and the sport on a whole. I implore you all who know and love baseball to write about the sport so we will not forget what is us.
I met Justice at the NABJ Conference last July when he sat on a panel discussion of the Black Athlete with Jemele Hill, Neal Scarbrough, Chris Broussard and David Aldridge. I was quite embarrassed I wasn’t altogether familiar with his body of work. He’s a pioneer in being one of the first Black reporters for Major League Baseball.
Do you know about him?
I thought not.
I wonder why that is?
He has a great baseball mind. I would love to sit down with him and discuss the sport in the press box at any of the classic fields and I hope I get that chance.
This is part one. Part two will be posted Monday morning.
Michael Tillery: Justice, why did you become a journalist?
Justice B. Hill: That’s always an interesting question. Maybe it was just a calling. I don’t really know. I know I enjoyed writing. When I graduated from Ohio State in 1978, that was a good time. It was post Watergate. You could be the next Woodward or Bernstein. Everybody was talking about those guys. It certainly was an opportunity back in those days because news papers–so they claimed–were looking to diversify and offer some opportunities. You sometimes look for chances to make the world better. I think as a journalist that is what we have an opportunity to do. You write about some interesting things and you hope that the truth will make this world a better place. That’s probably the reason more than anything. It wasn’t a case of a Black journalist before me helping to shape and inspire. Nothing like that. It was more a case of opportunity meshing with my skills.
MT: When did you fall in love with baseball?
JBH: I was always a baseball fan. Growing up in Cleveland, I always followed it. I always played. Keep in mind that if you grew up in the sixties and seventies, you were more likely to be a baseball fan than anything else. Guys like Reggie Jackson…
MT: He was my favorite player.
JBH: Willie Mays was still around in the early seventies. Hank Aaron…those were the heroes. Honestly, since I grew up in Cleveland, Jim Brown was someone I respected. That’s what you did in the sixties and seventies. People who grew up in the fifties played pick up baseball. You played baseball in the North until it got too cold then you played football. Maybe there was an opportunity to play basketball indoors, outdoors or whatever, but baseball was the sport. Let’s face it, especially in the sixties, we weren’t that far removed from the Negro Leagues. The name Jackie Robinson still meant something to people. Larry Doby meant a whole lot to Black folks who grew up in the city of Cleveland.
MT: For those who don’t know, can you elaborate on the type of player Larry Doby was on and off the field. He really doesn’t get the attention he deserves. That’s unfortunate.
JBH: Yes it is. That’s a shame Michael. Everybody thinks that after Jackie Robinson broke in after 1947, that everything was smooth sailing for everybody else and that wasn’t the case. People forget that Doby broke in the same season and there were a bunch of cities Doby played in that Robinson didn’t. Doby opened the doors in American league cities that Robinson couldn’t because he played in the National League.
Coming out of the Negro Leagues, he had a much better pedigree than Robinson did. That surprised a lot of people. Robinson was an older player. Larry Doby was much younger when he broke into the league. He broke in as a second baseman, but the Indians at the time didn’t need him to play the position so they moved him to the outfield. He then developed into a high quality outfielder. Speed, athleticism…he had the things a team would go for in the first wave of players that they would bring into the league.
They surely didn’t want any Black players who were showboats in those days. Larry Doby had a college education as well like Robinson. That made him more attractive to Whites and to teams that were looking to integrate. He was a great ball player. An absolutely fantastic ball player and a wonderful personality. He wasn’t as silent a personality as Robinson was, but how can you expect everybody to be the same?
The good thing in my life is that I got a chance to meet him on a number of occasions. He was gracious and eloquent. He was a man who could have hated but didn’t. He wasn’t resentful of how he was treated in the MLB and those kind of things. He was a wonderful example for Black youth and other Black men to follow.
MT: There’s a couple of players out there for me. I never got to see them play or meet them personally. Larry Doby was one and Buck O’Neil was the other. I was hot on Buck O’Neil’s trail before he passed. It was almost set up a couple of times at the Negro League Museum in Kansas City, but it never came to pass. That’s one of my biggest regrets and I still get emotional when I talk about it. I remember being sleep on my couch and waking to his voice–singing–at the Hall Of Fame induction in 2006. He affected me so much, his voice woke me up. I haven’t been affected by many people I haven’t known, but he was able to do that. What type of man was Buck O’Neil? I recently read your piece written before he passed.
JBH: I was there in Cooperstown. Michael, there’s been people that you can’t really put into words the type of people they were. Guys like Buck O’Neil are like Haley’s Comet–they come once in a blue moon. Again, just like Doby, this is a man who had more reasons to hate than anyone, but he didn’t. He said the only thing he hated was cancer and evil. I also met him on a number of occasions, before the Hall of Fame induction and he should have gotten in. Here’s a man who could’ve said that he didn’t want to be part of the induction ceremony for all those Negro Leaguers, but he chose to be there even though he was sick.
I’ll never forget that induction ceremony. There are always two to three day events going on. He and I were sitting on a bench near Doubleday Field–which is right near the Hall of Fame. Ozzie Smith was doing a clinic for young players and everybody moved out to the field to watch the clinic. We were just chit chatting about nothing. To this day I can’t remember what we talked about most likely because it was one of those things where you just assumed you’d see him a bunch of more times. Let’s say you meet someone whose never been sick in the past. You are likely to remember that. That’s how Buck was in your mind. It was just one of many times that I’d talked to him. I’ve been to the Hall of Fame on a number of occasions or done one on one interviews with him. Even though he was 93-94 years old, it never crossed my mind that I’d never get the chance to sit down with him again and have a conversation.
He was a wonderful example of good people that exists in this wold. We always want to talk about negative people but there are certainly enough good people to celebrate and Buck O’Neil was one of them.
My disappointment was that more young people didn’t get to see him and embrace him. I’m talking about mostly Black youth. Buck hasn’t been gone that long, but if you go to most high schools around the country and ask who Buck O’Neil was, they’d have no clue.
That should anger all of us.
MT: That is a shame. I remember growing up and like I said earlier that Reggie Jackson was my favorite player. When I played baseball I wore the number 44 because of him. I had no idea until I was about 15 or 16 that that was Hank Aaron’s number as well. It showed me that even back in the 80’s that we have a disconnect with baseball. Those small bits of knowledge is what’s missing from our history as well as our future.
JBH: That’s recent history Michael. The history that troubles me the most is that most don’t remember the Negro Leagues. If you ask the typical high school age kid about a couple of Negro Leauge players actually in the HOF, most would scratch their head.
I’ve come late to appreciate the Negro Leagues myself. It’s been probably in the last ten years that I’ve become a student of Black baseball. I can sit down with people at the Negro League Museum and have a meaningful conversation about who these men are.
Because baseball doesn’t resonate with Black youth anymore, we will have a hard time convincing them to read about these guys even though they have some marvelous stories to tell (and we’re not telling them). To me…that’s the sad part of all this.
MT: Did you connect with anyone from the Negro Leagues?
JBH: Most of the people I connected with were historians. Most of the people I’ve come in contact with by the time I’d become interested in the Negro leagues–almost every great player–had died. The only living one that has much of a history with the Negro Leagues was Joe Scott. I interviewed him recently. I think he’s about 88. He’s one of the last living members of the Negro Leagues from the forties. There’s a debate about when the Negro Leagues ceased to exist. A lot of historians say around 1950 when players were able to play in the MLB, the Negro Leagues stopped being significant. I pretty much buy into that.
MT: Here’s a question for you. Do you think Blacks integrating into Major League baseball was actually a detriment?
JBH: Detriment in what regard?
MT: Detriment in regards to the sheer pagentry of the game of baseball the future missed out on in Black communities. I’ve heard stories of those Sundays being a great spectacle for not only Blacks, but Whites as well. Satchel Paige pitching to batters with no one playing defense in front of packed parks. That had to be amazing to see and it was lost with integration. The money generated in Black communities was also lost.
JBH: When you look at it like that, certainly breaking the color barrier in baseball had a profound effect on the Black community. Having said that, that was progress. As much as we wanted to be accepted in all aspects of life in this country, progress meant that some of those institutions had to die. Do I wish I could go back and see what that era was like? Definitely. Just like you said, Black communities thrived in the Negro League Era. The stores weren’t owned by foreigners as they are now–certainly in Cleveland. The people down the street knew each other. There was a sense of camaraderie and a sense of brotherhood in the community that doesn’t exist today. The institutions that were the bedrock of Black society don’t have the hold on people that they once had.
Black folk on Sunday would go to church and then go watch Negro League baseball. We don’t go to church anymore. We certainly don’t get up on Sundays and think about watching baseball. Yeah I think it’s done some badness. I also think that the integration of our public schools has destroyed the foundation of our neighborhood schools. It hasn’t made the Black community a stronger institution as planned. I have a hard time saying that progress benefited us all across the board.
MT: This is another question I’ve always had Justice and I can’t think of anyone better to ask but in the tradition of Rickey Henderson, Lou Brock, Maury Wills and Vince Coleman, what happened to the stolen base?
JBH: It was replaced by power. Since the 90’s the home run has become the calling card of baseball. You dare not run even though the percentages are high (70 to 80% depending on speed obviously) if a Mark McGuire or a Barry Bonds is at the plate. The new baseball parks are more intimate so the potential of a big inning is far greater than it was years ago. Also those players who stole bases took a lot of wear and tear. Stealing bases with the frequency of Rickey Henderson, Willie Wilson, Lou Brock or Maury Wills takes a toll on your body because of the performance. Fans rather see the home run so you don’t run yourself out of an inning.
MT: How good was Rickey Henderson? Where would you rank him all time?
JBH: It’s hard to rank Rickey Henderson because he’s such a different player. Put it this way, if I had to pick a lead off hitter it would probably be him or Ichiro. Rickey wasn’t a great defensive player. He had enough power but he wasn’t a spectacular power hitter. He was exciting. When you bring that to the table and his ability to change the game–and he certainly had that ability with his speed–he was a wonderful ball player. Keep in mind, the stadiums that he played in were much bigger, so the stolen base was much more significant. Getting to second meant a lot. Now getting to second even with a single doesn’t mean you are necessarily going to score. I remember Manny Ramirez getting thrown out on a Mike Lowell single to right. That didn’t happen so much with the big outfield. Getting to second meant a whole lot and Rickey was good at getting to second. Rickey was good at scoring. He was good at getting on third base.
He’s a sure fire Hall of Famer there’s no doubt about that. Is he one of the ten greatest ball players of all time? I would say no. One of the twenty? I would say no. Thirty? No. Forty? No. Fifty? Now you are getting to where he belongs. In that next fifty. Is it seventy-nine or ninety-nine? I don’t know.
MT: Who would be your top five?
JBH: That’s a tough question to answer. There’s so many great players. There’s so many Negro League players that I’ve read about. I haven’t read really enough. I have to say–and most people would–that Babe Ruth is probably the greatest player of all time. He would be there. I love Oscar Charleston and Josh Gibson. They would be on my list because when they barnstormed against White teams in the 30’s some of the great players acknowledged they were classic players who would have been superstars.
Top five I can’t do. I could certainly run down a list of who I thought were great players and a significant number would be players in the Negro League.
MT: Why do you think America is intentionally or unintentionally attempting to erase the accomplishments and rich history of the Negro League?
JBH: Michael they never saw it. It’s not just White Americans, but Black folk too. The Negro League wasn’t covered by the mainstream press. All White people have heard about it was by word of mouth after Ken Burns’ series on baseball. It’s easy to ignore something that you absolutely aren’t familiar with.
I take a group to Kansas City. I think you know I coordinate the internship at MLB.com…
MT: Yes.
JBH: OK , well I take a group of White kids from Kansas or Missouri to the Negro League Museum. They are going to play a role of keeping the history alive because of their interest in baseball. They are going to be the people who are going to have an opportunity to write about the Negro Leagues. It can’t just be Blacks. It has to be Whites as well. When I take them there, they are stunned by what they find out. They say they didn’t know. They had no clue. They didn’t know the greatness that existed in this segregated era of baseball.
It’s easy to get caught up in Ruth, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker or Honus Wagner–or people like that. It’s easy to forget about Willie Wells, Biz Mackey, Home Run Johnson, Satchel Paige and Rube Foster.
It’s easy to forget that these people existed. No one is writing about them. No one is telling their stories. That’s why it’s become more and more incumbent of Black journalists like yourself to make it happen. I’m very critical of Black journalists–particularly young ones–who have no clue about their heritage. They care about LeBron and everyone like that, but sports is about history. There’s no history that’s richer in the Black community than baseball. You can talk about football and basketball all you want to but nothing is American as baseball for Black folks in this country. I try to bring it home to young people like this:
Baseball is Jazz in a Hip Hop world.
Jazz doesn’t resonate with young people and that’s a shame.
MT: Wow that’s a powerful statement. I’m telling you sir, that’s why I’m here. I’m trying to be a bridge with a whole bunch of arms climbing everywhere. I want everyone to climb on my back and let’s get it! Let’s go find out about the stories you speak of.
Sphere: Related Content
April 9th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
JBH hit on something early in the conversation talking about how he played baseball in the summer and football in the fall. That’s how it was for me as a kid, if it was warm enough when the season began we started playing, if gloves were hard to come by, we used a tennis ball or a rubber ball.
I still love baseball, I remember one summer all my cousin and I did was collect and trade cards. The packs were 2 for 25 cents because no one was buying them - man every quarter I got went to baseball cards; Sunday School offering whatever, by the end of the summer I had the entire set.
Tony Gwynn has always been my favorite player, I love players that can hit for average, I was a big fan of Don Mattingly he is so underrated on the list of great Yankee players. I revere Ichiro the way I do Gwynn. Tony was robbed of a .400 season he was batting .391 with a month to go when baseball went on strike in ‘94, I was heated.
Baseball is something that Q is starting to get into we go into the basement and I’ll either lob a pitch to him or let the ball bounce one time and he tears it up, we’ve been doing this for about a year now, so with him just turning 5 I’m going to put him into tee-ball.
I still have my first baseball glove my dad found it on the street, a Mike Schmidt Rawlings, complete with the shoestring tied in to hold the webbing together.
Thanks for this piece, I have some books on the Negro Leagues that I’ve gotten about halfway through, I need to finish them ASAP.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
[...] A very nice interview with MLB.com’s Justice B. Hill on the Negro Leagues. [The Starting Five] [...]
April 9th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Mizzo, this is a great story! I love baseball and I love jazz and the similarities are uncanny. I can’t wait for part 2.
April 9th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Thank you Mr. Hill for not allowing us to forget.
Mizzo,
As usual good stuff!
April 10th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Great interview, Michael. I am a huge baseball fan but even I don’t know nearly what I should about the game.
April 11th, 2008 at 6:47 am
mizzo, this was a wonderful read.
The thing about Rickey is that everyone acknowleges that he is the greatest leadoff hitter ever, but no one has him in their starting 9. Like JBH said, Rickey’s uniqueness makes him very difficult to judge historically.
I’m glad Larry Doby was brought up… I think that he only cam a couple of months after Jackie… history has not been kind to him at all as he had to go through all the same shit…
That Buck O’neil HOF shit was a travesty… at it is all the more worse because he missed by one single vote from what I heard…
April 11th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Great work Mizzo.
You are still doing this the right way. Keep up the great work.
April 11th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Modi: Thanks. Doby was a little more “Black” for the paying masses.
I don’t agree with Justice altogether about Rickey, but Mr. Hill knows a hell of a lot more than me so who am I?
My anger for Buck not getting in while he was alive will never die.
T3: Thanks as well. I’m just a conduit trying to do my part.
April 11th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
and Mizz, if I remember correctly, the Indians sucked on ice for pretty much a good portion of Doby’s time there.
And since you hotlinked to it I guess I can bring up my top 5 all-time.
1: Babe Ruth
2: Willie Mays
3: Honus Wagner
4: Hank Aaron
5: A-Rod\Mickey Mantle
April 11th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Here’s my list that I stick by:
#1 Barry Bonds
#2 Willie Mays
#3 Hank Aaron
#4 Babe Ruth
#5 Rickey Henderson
The first four are self explanatory. I rank Rickey over the likes of Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams, Stan Musial and Josh Gibson because Henderson’s combination of above average defensive ability (he didn’t have an arm, but he tracked down balls with the best of them and before Barry came along, he was regarded as the best left fielder of all time), speed, power and the rare nuance of changing a game from the on deck circle are incomparable.
Check the versatility of his stats.
April 11th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Here’s mine:
1. Willie Mays
2. Barry Bonds
3. Hank Aaron
4. Roberto Clemente
5. Babe Ruth
April 11th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
I will say this though….. Mays is a better all-around player than Bonds.
April 11th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Dude you have cats like Mantle and Wagner up there….c’mon really. Mantle hit the shit out of the ball and played a LITTLE d, but he’s no way that high. Bonds and Mays is arguable but I’m not going to put Ruth first when he struck out thousands of times more than bonds and aaron…no way.
I’m off to cover the game. I definitely want to continue this.
April 11th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
I’m a big baseball fan, however I have never played the game…with that said, here are my top 6.
1. The “Say Hey” Kid
2. Henry Aaron
3. Barry Bonds
4. Roberto Clemente
5. Ken Griffey Jr.
6. A-Rod
April 11th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
mizzo Says:
April 11th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Dude you have cats like Mantle and Wagner up there….c’mon really. Mantle hit the shit out of the ball and played a LITTLE d, but he’s no way that high. Bonds and Mays is arguable but I’m not going to put Ruth first when he struck out thousands of times more than bonds and aaron…no way.
Mantle is tied for fifth with A-Rod. In his prime, before his knees got fucked up and his lifestyle caught up with him, Mantle was incredible. And Wagner is, by all the measurements you feel like using, the best shortstop of all time. The guys I put up here are either shortstops and center fielders (Mays, Wagner, A-Rod,Mantle) which happens to be the most demanding defensive positions on the diamond or… Babe Ruth who hit more home runs than whole teams during his career and set a consecutive scoreless innings streak in the world series as a pitcher, and Hank Aaron who was one of the best defensive outfielders of his era and the all-time leader in RBI’s and total bases.
The defense rests.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Just for the sake of the conversation I’ll give you Mantle–even though I don’t agree he belongs that high. Albert Belle is one of my favorite players and hit with the best of them, but I’m not going to put him in my top five. If he didn’t need a hip what would his numbers be?
As far as Wagner and Ruth…
Wagner is laughable. Like really laughable. He’s regarded as the best shortstop of all time in an era where Ozzie Smith couldn’t even take infield practice.
Same thing with Ruth. I put him there based on numbers he put up against his collective peers, but who knows what he would have done in this day and time or even going up against a pitcher like Bob Gibson. How would he have fared?
Put Barry Bonds in that era and they would have thought he was E.T. with muscles.
I can’t take seriously any stats before April 15th 1947. There’s no argument, taser or psychologist that would ever change my mind.
It’s obvious why.
For anyone to diminish such a damning mark on baseball history is absurd.
April 13th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
here is what I have done in this situation:
I’ve split the argument into two distinct eras. Pre-1947 and post-1947. It’s the best, and most fairest way, to do the thing.
And did you seriously mention Ozzie Smith in the same breath with Honus Wagner as the best shortstop of all time? Ozzie Smith? Seriously? Ozzie Smith? You’d have a better argument if you said like…. Barry Larkin. But Ozzie was never a great hitter for either average or power. The best post-integration shortstops are probably (in no particular order): Ripken, Banks, Larkin, Rodriguez, Yount, Smith.
And the Ruth arguments have to me fallen right into the fallacy of the pre-determined outcome. Who knows? Ruth might have put up the exact same numbers against the greats of Gibson’s era (although he would have faced him in All-Star Games and World Series considering that they were in different leagues)
April 13th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
If you do split the eras, then there’s two different lists.
Ozzie Smith is the best defensive shortstop ever. It has nothing to do with average. You ask people who know and most will say Ozzie.
Another thing. If you include any of the pre-1947 greats then you have to factor in Satchel Paige as one of the best pitchers of all time.
April 13th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
you will notice I didn’t say best defensive shortstop ever. I said best shortstop. That includes offense. And offensively Ozzie Smith isn’t in the discussion with guys like Larkin, Yount, and banks.
And by the way…. Paige is one of the great pitchers of all-time if you combine negro league and MLB numbers.
April 13th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Then Josh Gibson and Oscar Charleston belong on the list as well–to name a few.
I’m not going to let people forget about how amazing Ozzie Smith was. It’s not about what have you done lately when it comes to facts and how they affect history.
April 13th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Mizz… I am not denying Ozzie Smith was a great defensive shortstop. I know he was. Trust me. But offensively… Barry Larkin’s best years take Ozzie’s best years out behind a roadhouse outside of St. Louis and beat the hell out of them. plkus you could make the argument that it was Larkin who helped to create the bigger shortstop trend we see now in MLB, so he wins points for being influential.
Larkin’s Baseball Reference Page: http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/larkiba01.shtml
Smith’s Baseball Reference Page: http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/smithoz01.shtml
and I know how good Gibson and Charleston were. I’d put them in. don’t know where yet.
April 13th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Have I said one thing about offense? He was the greatest shortstop until this power era. Not just great on defense.
I will not let his era be defined by Cal Ripken’s streak.
Defensively none of the players you’ve mentioned could carry Ozzie’s jock. None of them.
I’m a Michigan fan. I full well now about Larkin’s exploits.
April 13th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
no. A-Rod is the greatest shortstop ever. Smith’s in the lower half of the discussion.
April 13th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
That’s your opinion. Give me Ozzie’s range and glove over ARod any day. Put the news paper down and think clearly for a second. If ARod was all that he would have supplanted Jeter at short.
Whose discussion? Yours?
April 13th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
no. he wouldn’t have supplanted Jeter at short because Jeter demanded to stay at short and Torre agreed, and the Yankees are not about to piss Jeter off for anything.
Fine you can have Ozzie’s range and glove. I’ll take A Rod’s multiple 50-homer seasons, batting titles, and 2 MVP’s.
the discussion of like… Bill James.
April 13th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
You say one name? C’mon
ARod can have all the trinkets he wants but he has yet to run around the bases like Smith Wold Series victorious.
That shit don’t mean a thing without the ring.
Uh did I say I was a Yankee fan?
April 13th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
and Rob Neyer, and Keith Law, and pretty much every baseball mind and probably even Justice B. Hill if you asked him.
Oh by the way then, using your logic, then Lonnie Smith is a better left fielder than Ted Williams.
April 13th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Okori I’m not at all diminishing your baseball knowledge. But to actually sit where you are and say that Ozzie Smith isn’t regarded as the best shortstop ever is absurd.
Don’t clown me with your bs Lonnie Smith/Ted Williams analogy either. That shit doesn’t hold water in any form.
Writers of this era aren’t in it for the history of the game Okori. Get in the game and you’ll find that out really quick.
April 13th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
ok Mizz. let’s make a deal. add the word defensive between best and shortstop and i’ll agree with you.
and I can’t get in the game. I am too busy trying to convince parents that throwing boiling pots of water at their kids is a bad idea.
April 13th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Rings matter most. In this era? I’ll agree.
Hey we all find the time. You can do anything you want in this world with hard work. Trust me on that.
April 13th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
dude you don’t have to tell me. but man…. there are parents I work with in my job who I am disgusted by on a routine basis.
You know the type.
April 13th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
No doubt. This is the first year I haven’t coached in a long time. I miss it dearly, but not the parents.
Your job is on another level. Keep pushin’.
April 13th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
i’ll say this, and ‘Kofa will agree with me: some of the parents i see mean well, but just don’t know what they have to do. then there are those who do not care all that much about their kids, and think of them as kind of like chattel.
April 13th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Okori -
I don’t see the point in making the split at 1947. The league was not integrated in 1947. Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby didn’t INTEGRATE the league - they crossed the color barrier. The league did not approach integration until much later. And even then, it only happened in the National League.
I appreciate the distinction you’re making and agree in principle. I don’t know what year is an ideal dividing line. I also know that Blacks and African Latinos dominated the NL MVP for about 30 years after the color bar was crossed.
It wasn’t erased because even after 1947 teams had quotas. 1947 was significant but it wasn’t the year in which MLB statistics, with respect to an African presence, become meaningful.
April 14th, 2008 at 12:47 am
for the purposes of statistic uniformity we’ll go with ‘47. I’m trying not to catch a headache figuring out the year.
I will say that there are some records, set pre-integration, that are still meaningful. Hack Wilson’s 190 RBI for an example. Not every record set pre-integration is cheap. I always try to remember that.
April 14th, 2008 at 3:15 am
MY FIVE:
1. Barry Bonds
2. Babe Ruth
2. Josh Gibson
4. Ted Williams
5. Alex Rodriguez
Notes:
– There may be other Nego League Players (Oscar C.) who could crack the top 5 but i need more education…
– Both Mays and Aaron are overrated historically in my mind for the simple fact that both had a career on base percentage that was under .400. They simply didn’t walk enough
– Babe ruthg also gets “pitching points”
– I’m not including pitchers
– About the 1947 question, there is anecdotal evidence here and there from MLB-Negro League exhibitions to draw some conclusions. For instance DiMaggio says that Satchel was the best pitcher that he ever faced…
April 14th, 2008 at 3:58 am
Dig how many home runs he hit/games played. I would have loved to see that Pittsburgh Crawfords team play. This is what history has erased because of nonsensical racism. Angers the hell out of me. Black writers you have to document every Negro League story you hear or read or it will not be known. Our children deserve to know their history. It’s as simple as that.
Oscar Charleston was the truth…
First baseman/center fielder | Negro Leagues
Oscar McKinley Charleston: “The Hoosier Comet”
* Born: October 14, 1896, Indianapolis, Indiana
* Died: October 5, 1954, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
* Bats: left
* Throws: left
* Elected to Hall of Fame by Committee on Negro Leagues: 1976
Many considered Oscar Charleston to be the best Negro player of the 1920s. The versatile star batted over .300 for most of his career and his speed, strong arm and fielding instincts made him a standout center fielder and first baseman. He played for the top Negro teams, including the Indianapolis ABCs, Harrisburg Giants, Philadelphia Hilldales, Homestead Grays and Pittsburgh Crawfords. He also managed several teams during his 40 years in Negro baseball. His speed, aggressive baserunning, short temper and terrific hitting drew comparisons to Ty Cobb.
Inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1976, he followed Satchel Paige (1971), Josh Gibson (1972), Buck Leonard (1972), Monte Irvin (1973), and Judy Johnson (1975). Of course, Jackie Robinson (1962) and Roy Campanella (1969) had long since been inducted, following their stints with major league ball clubs.
During his career, he played with the Indianapolis ABC’s, New York Lincoln Stars, Chicago American Giants, St. Louis Giants, Harrisburg Giants, Hilldale, Homestead Grays, Pittsburgh Crawfords , Toledo Crawfords, Indianapolis Crawfords, Philadelphia Stars, Brooklyn Brown Dodgers, and Indianapolis Clowns. But it was as manager of the dynastic Pittsburgh Crawfords in the early to mid 1930s (a team which many rate as the finest in the history of the Negro Leagues, featuring Hall of Famers Cool Papa Bell, Paige, Gibson, Johnson and Charleston, among others) that he had his greatest success. A native of Indianapolis, Charleston grew up serving as batboy for the local ABC’s. At age 15, he joined the army and was stationed in the Philippines. The military gave the underage runaway the opportunity to display his abilities in track and baseball; he ran the 220-yard dash in 23 seconds, and played in the otherwise all-white Manila League. Entering big-time black baseball with the ABC’s, he was a vital cog in their 1916 Black World Series triumph over the Chicago American Giants, batting .360 in seven of the 10 games played. After stints with the American Giants and New York Lincoln Stars, he rejoined Indianapolis when the Negro National League was organized in 1920.
Through 1923, the lefthanded-hitting and throwing Charleston posted a .370 batting average with the NNL ABC’s and St. Louis Giants, and in 1921 led the league in hitting (.446), triples (10), HR (14), total bases (137), slugging (.774), and stolen bases (28), finishing second with 79 hits in 50 games. From 1922 to 1925, he was player-manager for the Eastern Colored League Harrisburg Giants, and, after a second-division finish in 1924, he led them to three consecutive second-place finishes. In 1925, he batted .424. From 1928 to 1931, he hit .347 in two-year stints with the Hilldale club and the Homestead Grays. The Grays won a 10-game Eastern Championship Series from the New York Lincoln Giants in 1930.
In 1932 Gus Greenlee persuaded Charleston to manage his Pittsburgh Crawfords. Josh Gibson, Judy Johnson, Cool Papa Bell and Satchel Paige joined him to give the club four more future Hall of Famers. Operating independently, they went 99-36 as their 36-year-old manager batted .363, second on the club to Gibson. Often considered black baseball’s greatest team, the Crawfords became the dominant member of the tough National Negro Association, which operated from 1933 to 1936. Pittsburgh claimed the 1933 pennant, as did the Chicago American Giants, without resolution. In 1935 the Crawfords won the first NNL’s only undisputed title. In 1936 they posted the best overall record, winning the second half of the split season. A title series with the first-half champion Washington Elite Giants was never completed, though the Giants won the only game played, 2-0.
Charleston remained with the Crawfords through 1940, following them in moves to Toledo and Indianapolis. He became manager of the NNL Philadelphia Stars in 1941 and the Brooklyn Brown Dodgers when Branch Rickey formed the United States League in 1945. He was thus put in a position to scout and evaluate players for organized baseball’s integration. He managed through 1954, leading the Indianapolis Clowns to the ‘54 Negro American League title, but died after the season.
Statistics so far compiled show that Charleston batted .353 lifetime. He twice led the Cuban Winter League in SB, and had 31 during the 1923-24 campaign, setting a record that stood for more than 20 years. In 53 exhibition games against white major leaguers, he hit .318 with 11 HR.
Charleston had a famous temper, and enjoyed brawling, resulting in legendary encounters with umpires, opponents, agents raiding his teams, a Ku Klux Klansman, and, on one occasion, several Cuban soldiers. As his legs gave out, he moved from centerfield to first base, yet as long as he played, he never lost his home run power, nor his meanness on the basepaths. He was sympathetic toward young players, and was protective of rookie teammates. A demanding manager who expected his players to perform as well as he did, his strength as a pilot lay in his understanding of the intricacies of the game. He was elected to the Hall of Fame by the Committee on Negro Baseball Leagues in 1976.
April 14th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
I would have too. But i have one question: Why are there teams named Crawfords (and 2 of them)?
Mizz re the Ozzie Smith thing: there’s a reason people say the best defensive (insert position here). Because when you say that Ozzie Smith is the best shortstop of all time, and you don’t include the defense as the codifier, you get people spitting various and sundry liquids all over laptops. Because if you say best shortstop it implies that he was also the best hitting shortstop of his era and that is clearly not the case. And don’t sleep on Yount because of complexion. Dude is one of only 2 guys to ever win MVP’s at 2 different positions.
April 14th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Okori this has nothing to do with complexion. There’s no need for that qualifier. I’ve been saying this for the last month. I don’t want the legend to become fact. Saying Ozzie Smith is the best shortstop of all time isn’t a problem. It may elicit a heated discussion but when you say shortstop you are speaking of defense. I didn’t say best hitter or most power or speed or whatever.
I said best shortstop. As a coach I want a shortstop who is going to go get the ball. If he can hit, then that’s an added bonus. How do you think Omar Vizquel has played all these years.
He’s a beast.
April 14th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Okori, the Crawfords drew their name from Crawford Bath House and Recreation Center, a city-run facility that assisted immigrants as well African-Americans who migrated from the South.
April 14th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
It’s 191 now. According to Baseball Reference.com and several other sites, the home run record in 191. There was some research done in the 1980’s which demonstrated an RBI was incorrectly given to a teammate.
By the way, if you are looking at the question of “race,” you cannot begin a “valid” analysis in 1947 because your sample size of 2 is statistically irrelevant. In other words, you need a representative sample size before you can determine “validity” or draw any conclusions.
Baseball is ALL ABOUT statistics. I don’t want you to get a headache, but if you were to apply the same “standard” to finance or politics or national defense or education budgets, you’d essentially be making the case for the validity of comparing the condition of Black folk in 1867 with the wealth of their masters - two years after the ban on involuntary servitude. I’ll leave it at that. With all due respect and love - I recommend rigor and aspirin.
April 14th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
my backup by this point is… I’d say 1960 if we aren’t going to do ‘47.
No. If i did the same comparison for whatever reason (and I wouldn’t because then i’d go into a coma) i’d probably use the year after the civil rights and voting acts were passed. But I am not a statistician. This is not my job. I work as a social worker. I failed statistics at UM.
April 14th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Mizz: Saying best shortstop automatically includes offensive production. If you say someone is the best catcher of all time (an honor I think falls on the shoulders of Johnny Bench) then it implies both defensive and offensive prowess. However if you say best defensive catcher then you open up the thing to guys who stayed in JUST for their defense, like Charlie O’Brien or Tony Pena Sr.
Temple: I’m allergic to aspirin. I drink hot tea and listen to Dance Hall Crashers to stave off headaches.
April 14th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
This is something new Okori. Ernie Banks wasn’t the definition of the shortstop even though he was a monster offensively.
It was Smith.
Yes I fully agree it should include offensive production, but ARod has no rings!
He’s played on the baddest team in MLB history with some of the best talent and can’t put them over the top.
I’m a Yankee fan and there are those of us that won’t consider him a true Yankee until he does something Reggie Jax.
April 14th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
the baddest team in MLB History? The 2004-2007 Yankees? Seriously?
The 2001 Mariners would like a word. And when they are done the 92 and ‘93 Blue Jays, the ‘98 Yankees, and the ‘84 Tigers would also like to chat.
April 14th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
The Yankess as a franchise Okori! Damn…Why do you think I referenced Reggie Jackson?
April 14th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
oh i thought you meant the current team on the field.
well as Justice explained in part 2 unless A-Rod pitches it doesn’t matter. He can go 12-for-12 but if his pitchers screw the pooch, and the bullpen blows leads and saves, he won’t win.
April 14th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
My bad. I was kind of vague. Sorry it’s a high standard to step to, but dude has to hit bombs when it counts. It’s as simple as that.
April 14th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
well…. he can hit a home run in the 8th and then his team blows the lead in the ninth. what gets said then? that A-Rod choked r that the bullpen wasted a great home run?
April 14th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Okori: I think I like your solution to headaches very much.
April 14th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Cricket: Best headache remedy song ever.
April 14th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Okori you are absolutely right. As a Yankee fan I would like him more to hit more home runs in the clutch. Trust me, I’m not alone when saying that.
He’s expected to lead this team to a championship. Is it fair? Hell no, but he gets paid very well to do so.
April 14th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
i’m a white sox fan. pitching wins. it always has.
there are plenty of great hitters without rings, but very few great pitchers without them.
April 14th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
I agree with you there but dude still has to have a 5 home run .400 playoff series. That’s why he makes the big bucks. NY doesn’t need him for marketing purposes because they’re the Yankees.
Step up Arod!
April 14th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
oh and Mizz? Try listening to “Cricket” by Dance Hall Crashers next time you have a headache.
April 14th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Will do. Thanks.
April 14th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
no problem. they are actually a really good band.
and another really good player who isn’t treated like it is Al Kaline.
April 14th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
you know what else I was thinking?
1 more sport that we, as people concerned with the ways of the world, should steer our kids towards to engender the principles of discipline, sacrifice, calm under fire, and proper nutrition: Amateur Wrestling. Very few of the guys who go into that as a sport don’t end up as at the very least good people, and highly educated.
Mizz if you see this… see if you can catch an interview with Kenny Monday. Dude was nasty.
April 14th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Yes he was. I’ll reach out.
April 14th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
wow. did i ever think you’d know who Kenny Monday was? Nope. and there are actually a lot of really good african-american amateur wrestlers. Monday’s the patron saint of the movement but it’s a forum for our children to travel the world, and see different cultures.
June 12th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
My company does video news stories on great people with awesome attitudes — they don’t get much better than some of the Negro League players who broke barriers in baseball!
You can see a video we did at MLB’s recent symbolic draft of Negro League players, which includes Millito Navarro, Peanut Johnson, Charley Pride and Bill Blair as well as Ken Griffey and Dave Winfield.
I hope you enjoy it!
http://growingbolder.com/media/Sports/Baseball/Righting-a-Wrong-155775.html
March 25th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Great quality stuff.