Town Hall Meeting On Media and Sports
If you have HBO you should really check this out when you get a chance.
I’ll write something up on this a little later.
Will Leitch gets verbally chin checked in the piece.
Sphere: Related ContentIf you have HBO you should really check this out when you get a chance.
I’ll write something up on this a little later.
Will Leitch gets verbally chin checked in the piece.
Sphere: Related Content
April 30th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
I’m not gonna blow you up but I’m just curious.
What is your stance? Do you agree with Buzz or with leitch?
April 30th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
The one who acted like the idiot lost. Seems clear Leitch had the better showing.
April 30th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Because I’m a journalist/blogger I’m in the middle. I don’t ascribe to what Leitch does by any means–you can tell by the tenor of our interview–but I don’t agree with most of mainstream journalism either.
Would Dwil, Temple3 or I have gotten slammed as much as Leitch did?
No, because our writing is based on fact–even if it’s debatable.
I do agree with the freedom of blogging but it has to be tempered with knowledge and discretion when it comes to sports.
You can’t just throw something out there that isn’t true. Why would you want to do that?
Mainstream journalists see cats like Leitch as a threat to their existence.
I say if you come correct you will always be relevant.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Here’s my problem with Bissinger’s ranting, Mizzo: the mainstream media he and Costas take such pains to defend in vulgar and abusive tones (after calling out blogs for using those same tones) have been more abusive towards athletes with bigger audiences.
I mean, look at a lot of the debate shows on ESPN, read columns as reprehensible as Wallace Matthews’ latest defending Roger Clemens, and especially the condemnation of Barry Bonds without conviction.
Stones, glass houses, etc. I don’t agree with everything Deadspin publishes, but most mainstream media members are in no place to criticize Leitch for tabloid qualities when they’re guilty of the same damn ish.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
I love that Bissinger was saying blogs were vulger while he was cursing like a sailor. Class.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
S2N. You are absolutely correct and I couldn’t agree more.
All of it’s bullshit if you ask me. I wouldn’t never speak about folk the way some of these cats do. What does it serve?
Why do we as a society want our information packaged as bullshit?
What happened to discussing facts and the actual games on the field without getting someone fired or demoted?
I agreed with a lot of what Bissinger said because I have children who might face the same bullshit when they get a little older. Would I talk about someones child in a demeaning fashion?
No.
I’m not too familiar with Bissinger so it would be irresponsible to comment on him as a person. I just thought he brought up great points that wouldn’t have been discussed if it wasn’t for the show.
I commend Leitch as a businessman. He saw something and went and got it. Do I agree with a lot of stuff on Deadspin? No, but to each his own.
Just another case of chickens coming home to roost.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Do I read Deadspin? Yeah. Partly because they cover things TSF doesn’t. Do I read TSF too, and Pulse Wrestling, and the Big Lead? Yup. My point with all of that is this: One does not have to be exclusive with the other. I can be conscious socially at points in my life, and at other points, I can laugh myself into an ice cream headache at a picture of Kyle Orton.
I have a bigger problem with Buzz Bissinger, a guy who lived in a town to write a big book about small-town Texas football and gained that town’s trust who then proceeded to tell everyone how ass-backwards and racist the whole town was, than I do with Will Leitch, whose straight posting numbers have gone down.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
I don’t want my children reading most of the crap that’s out there. Deadspin has linked here on numerous occasions so I can’t find fault with everything they do.
Someone has got to be serious about something though. I would love to write a funny ass piece on some of the stuff I see, but is it really anyone’s business?
April 30th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Mizzo, although there is substance to Bissinger’s points, they ring hollow — particularly because he was so abusive of Leitch. It made him look petty and elitist, especially when you consider Okori’s point about how he savaged the townspeople who allowed him to chronicle their lives for Friday Night Lights.
Leitch came off looking like the bigger person, and Braylon Edwards fared the best because he said the least. I would have been interested more in a back and forth between Leitch and Edwards on the relationship between the blogging world and the subjects they cover. Costas failed in his duty as a moderator there.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Here’s a quote: “A little nonsense is a tonic even for the best of men.” When I go to Deadspin I turn a part of my mind off, and turn another one on. And I think that’s part of the appeal.
and I agree with S2N here…. Leitch and Edwards would have been more informative. Bissinger just came across bitter and elitist, like someone who wanted everything to look like he remembered it from 1975.
April 30th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
oh and Michael…. Buzz Bissinger didn’t say Deadspin. he said Blogs. which includes you, CoSellout, Sports on my mind, and everyone.
May 1st, 2008 at 12:19 am
Sorry I was out.
So the impression I’m getting from both of you is that Deadspin is some kind of victim?
I’m not familiar with Bissinger. S2N what if he were correct in his assertion that the town is racist? He’s not honorable or credentialed enough to point that out?
Look, the first Blog I ever read was Deadspin. Deadspin and The Big Lead were cool to me because they linked to my Scoop and Whitlock interviews when I initially got into the game.
TrueHoop followed and I’m forever indebted to the three, but that being said, where’s the responsibility in reporting? Who the hell is culpable for the bullshit that the two earlier aforementioned seem to thrive on?
Will Leitch makes more money in a month than most bloggers will ever make in a year writing stuff that couldn’t pop a bubble gum bubble.
When basketball season is over you are going to see a totally different writer in me. Not complaining, but I’m spreading myself thin in attempts to make a name for myself through the mainstream.
Do I wish I could just write here and nowhere else and comfortably make a living?
Of course, but this type of stuff is what America shies away from. America doesn’t want to talk about race in any context.
It’s funny, but when I go into locker rooms, athletes smile like they’ve known me forever and some are suspicious simply because of the color of my face.
White reporters don’t get that.
A Black Deadspin or Big Lead would be laughed off the blogosphere so why the hell is it OK for them but not for us?
Yeah yeah, I rambled but hopefully you got my point. I’ll discuss further after your rebuttal.
May 1st, 2008 at 12:27 am
Another thing is I don’t care if Bissinger was so abusive to Leitch. Will can handle himself, so in the grand scheme of things, his emotions are a necessity.
May 1st, 2008 at 12:42 am
ok Mizz… let me try and ask you a question.
If you write a book about a small town, and hold all the information about how racist the town was underneath your hat while at the same time eventually earning the town’s trust enough to where they let you into their lives and allow you to write things that they might not very well have shared with other people, would you not consider it unethical journalistically to then go tell everyone who will interview you about howthe town that trusted you is nothing more than a collection of racist and ass-backwards hicks, would you not consider that just horrifyingly unethical?
Or would you say that’s something worth doing, purely because you’re shining a light on racism? Is betraying the trust of an entire town just to call out a few racists worth it? Is holding information back to print a book, and then spitting in the star protagonists of that book, worth it just because you can make the point that a small Texas town is racist?
Yes, Michael, Deadspin and all blogs were drug onto a national roundtable by Bob Costas and Buzz Bissinger and collectively slapped right in the face. They didn’t even know what a blog was, and tried to make Will Leitch (who i don’t know from Adam incidentally) into the spokesman for the internet. Will Leitch was treated like he was some punk know-nothing from the sticks purely because he runs a blog. Would you respond the same way if someone did that to you, if someone brought you on National TV and expected you to explain away the posts of me for instance and the comments of Friedman? Or would you then get that a peer doesn’t have to do things the way you do them to still be a peer?
Mizz I come to this blog because I like it here. I comment because I like it here. I submitted 2 reader pieces because I like it here. But if you can’t see that the entire blogosphere, including people linked on the blogroll, took Buzz’s words as a personal affront not because Will is white, but because all blogs deserve better than to be lumped into a box by one cranky old man whose career is ending in front of him than you’re unwilling to see things beyond your face.
I’m trying to hold my tongue here (shocking I know) but listen Michael: The Big Lead and Deadspin, no matter how silly they are or might be, don’t need to be insulted or assaulted by anyone. And if there was a black Big Lead, or a black Deadspin, and this happened… I’d be pissed.
That’s it. I’m done. I need a nap.
May 1st, 2008 at 12:52 am
Like I said earlier, I’m not familiar with the whole Bissinger thing, so I can’t comment. I’ll do a little reading and have a more informed opinion on this tomorrow.
I don’t get it.
“I’m trying to hold my tongue here (shocking I know) but listen Michael: The Big Lead and Deadspin, no matter how silly they are or might be, don’t need to be insulted or assaulted by anyone.”
So the blogs who do the insulting are infallible to deserved criticism?
That’s funny, but not really.
I wish someone would invite me to a town meeting and slam me.
OMG I would love it!!!! I don’t care if it were a thousand against me, trust me I would shine.
May 1st, 2008 at 12:57 am
what i meant to say there Mizzo was this: They don’t need to be held up as the representation of all blogs across the internet. That’s what Costas and Bissinger tried to do.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:25 am
But they do represent the attitude of most sports blogs. To say that they don’t is incredible.
Get ten million hits a month and you will damn sure be emulated.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:39 am
Awful Announcing, TrueHoop, CoSellout, Sports on my Mind, Neil Best’s Watchdog, Signal to Noise, Fire Joe Morgan: all of them would like a word. They are nothing like Deadspin in any meaningful way.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:41 am
Dude you bring up those blogs like they are the majority?
Okori please I do this for a living. I know full well about who the hell does what on the web.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:56 am
Damn - as soon as I saw Costas’ grille, I was done. I don’t phuk with that cat at all. He’s verboten.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:57 am
and because i don’t think i calrified this enough… Bissinger never reported in his book about the town’s racism. He held it back, palling around with all those people in the town and wrote a book without it in there. He then did interviews mentioning the racism in the town, racism he never brought up in the book.
If you covered a team for a whole season and was writing a book, the Portland Trail Blazers hypothetically during the height of the Rasheed Wallace era and saw things that would reflect badly on those players, would you hide that knowledge from the book and then air it out in public? Or would you tell your subjects that it’s going to be a warts-and-all production, which Bissinger never did.
May 1st, 2008 at 2:52 am
That entire round table was worthless. Bissinger clearly doesn’t normally read blogs, or Bob Costas for that matter, because the advantage of Blogs over MSM is choice. Simple.
Even if a majority of Blogs are bullshit, it doesn’t really matter, the fact is blogs are the ONLY place to get a differing opinion. Especially when it comes to sports.
Frankly Bissinger can shit on Deadspin all he wants. I agree Deadspin is garbage, but it is incorrect to then extrapolate that all blogs are garbage. Even with all that bullshit, the small percentage of good sites, like this site along with all those Okori mentioned, still mean a net gain for journalism. Just because at least there is a place to get different view points.
As far as the minefield of media that my future children will have to navigate. I don’t think blogs really contribute that much to it. You already need to teaching your children to know fact from fiction, to know the flower from the manure it’s planted in. Blogs haven’t changed that.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:23 am
I don’t know if you have but you need to read the interview I did with Leitch. I see him totally different. The one thing I give him credit for was his honesty about the way Whites view Bonds.
I don’t have a problem with him personally, just the content that drives his site.
Deadspin has been a pioneer of sorts and the remnants of Will’s efforts are an indirect reason why alternative blogs (I can’t stand that word) like this are in existence.
Look I look at the world differently from a whole lotta lotta folk and I’m not diminishing any of your opinions, but to write about sports without access is incredulous.
That’s what he does, so each his own, but don’t be upset when the dogs come for you.
I’ve learned that viewing sports through the production of TV is straight bogus.
To know when someone is having problems with his girl or was out last night or had a recent death in the family is entirely exclusive of what fans see.
It affects the outcome. Beat writers have a very difficult job and while I don’t agree with everything they say or write because of PRODUCTION, I understand why they do it.
The two might not be far removed from each other, but to understate that most sports blogs are bullshit is ridiculous.
Why wasn’t just one of the aforementioned sites referenced on the show. Hell, I myself have interviewed at least five guests on the show, so it’s not like they don’t know who I am.
I spoke to Dwil and from what I understand he might have been the driving force behind the shows premise. Why wasn’t he mentioned?
Again, it’s all about producing an agenda to serve something. We’ll see if HBO is genuine by the authenticity of the race and sports show. If one of the sites you all have mentioned is not referenced, something is amiss.
Now I know I don’t get 10 million page views a month and if you collectively combine all of us you still wouldn’t touch that number, but damn…
May 1st, 2008 at 3:24 am
My children check out the site from time to time so they know the difference, but do we all have that access?
May 1st, 2008 at 3:52 am
Mike, I’m wondering if you saw the third portion with Cris Carter, Wilbon and Whitlock…Whitlock has his dancing shoes on, big time
May 1st, 2008 at 4:10 am
About pushing an agenda… thats all I saw in the entire segment. 90% of the media in North America is owned by 6 companies. By not mentioning the good along with bad it’s pretty clear that their intention was to devalue all independent journalism. I agree we’ll know for certain when they do the show on race and sports.
Just quickly getting back to knowing the difference between the good and the bad. It reminds me a lot when Jon Stewart was on CNN Crossfire. They were blasting him for pushing a political agenda, and he repeated that his show was a joke. Of course the CNN people brought up the point you just mentioned - what if there are people who can’t tell the difference? And Jon Stewart replied (paraphrasing obviously) “What? They don’t believe me when I say I’m joking, and then believe everything else I say?”
Deadspin’s slogan is “Sports news without access, favor or discretion”. I don’t think they are trying to hide their intentions. Although Dwil in the same discussion on SOMM has said Deadspin does try to pull the “we’re real journalist” card every once in a while. That I do have a problem with. Your interview probably gave you far better insight into Lietch’s motives than I can claim to have. So I’ll go delve into the archives, try to gain that insight.
May 1st, 2008 at 6:19 am
This dialogue here really got me thinking because there are really good points all around. But I just don’t see any clear “victor” between Buzz and Will Bissenger and Costas clearly overgeneralized about blogging; S2N’s and Okori’s points about holding blogs to a higher standard are true; but overall I tend to agree with Mizzo when he says “don’t be upset when the dogs come at you”. There is no getting around the fact that DeadSpin’s content makes them — and the whole blogosphere vulnerable to fair and unfair criticism. Take all the blogs of substance, add them together, and they still only attract a fraction of the DeadSpin audience… and all the DeadSpin copycats… on about an 80% level DS does represent blogging… at least statistically speaking…
Was Will ambushed? Sure he was. But 10 million hits a month makes you a primetime player, and some of DeadSpins content ends up unfairly speaking for the whole blogoshpere. What might be incumbent upon DeadSpin is to use their platform and his blog to do a better job in reflecting the diversity of the blogoshere. If there is no pressure from within the blogosphere to uplift DS, then they will represent the entire medium… and give more weight to the mainstream dinosaurs who paint with a broad brush
———————–
“When basketball season is over you are going to see a totally different writer in me.”
Mizzo, please elaborate…
May 1st, 2008 at 10:58 am
Concentrating on the craft (and this book) eyes wide shut instead of catching basketballs—falling out of bounds–with all of eight arms…
May 1st, 2008 at 11:02 am
Oh and Okori…as soon as a Harvard grad describes his blog as infantile I don’t hear the next sound of his voice.
May 1st, 2008 at 11:04 am
Yeah he did vito. He also said he knew about Clemens and steroids. If that’s true then where was his hit piece on Rocket’s Hip Hop?
May 1st, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Sounds like Mizzo is just hating that another guy is getting money with his blog and you aren’t. You claim they have no standards but you and d-wil while occasionally producing a solid article supported by facts will post the same garbage hit pieces on those you don’t like just like Deadspin, except Deadspin does it in a tongue-in-cheek manner while you all are dead serious while you make uninformed assumptions.
The fact is the attack on blogs, that is what this was, is an attack on all blogs, so if you are going to agree with the pissing on of Deadspin you are agreeing that your blog should also be pissed on.
May 1st, 2008 at 12:50 pm
David Mac don’t get banned again with your bs assumptions. Where is your blog? Where are your uninformed assumptions? What the hell are you doing to make this place better instead of hating on everyone and everything?
You are the biggest hater the blogosphere has ever seen and trust me that readers here and on SOMM will back me up when I say this.
I said many times that Leitch saw something and went and got it. I applaud him for doing so.
This isn’t about TSF making money. Trust me on that.
I know you truly don’t believe some of the bullshit you say sometimes–at least I hope not.
Where are these uninformed assumptions? Please let me know and I’ll judge myself accordingly.
As far as hit pieces, ya damn right I’m going to speak out because if people like me don’t who the hell will?
I’m not leaving this society up to people like your condescending ass to be the voice of the people because if I do we are all fucked.
May 1st, 2008 at 12:58 pm
I am going to say something I will never say again: I agree with something David Mac said. This was a hit piece on ALL blogs, not just Deadspin. You think they won’t do this again when they have the race in sports special, and use your blog to try and bludgeon all socially conscious blogs with another cranky old man trying to remain relevant as the bludgeoner? If you listen to the piece they mention the blogosphere (which includes TSF, whether you like it or not) as a haven for “journalistic dishonesty, cruelty, and speed.” Is that what you see? Is that how you want to be thought of?
May 1st, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Have any of you read the Will Leitch interview?
You will be enlightened even though I think he was pandering to TSF existence.
Please do so and then come back here and comment.
That goes for everyone who is commenting.
This is the reason why I transcribe these long ass interviews with folk to offer you the reader a complete picture.
I just think you all are missing the point because you truly can’t relate–you don’t sit in our space.
Is there something to be said for that or not?
So experience in anything can be trumped by inexperience?
Seriously?
May 1st, 2008 at 1:18 pm
sometimes Michael a cigar is just a cigar, and an insult is just an insult.
I don’t need to sit in your space to know what it feels like to have someone walk up to me, with papers in their hand, and ask me to explain someone else’s writings and denigrate me based on comments, and use what i may or may not say as an opportunity to springboard into an insult on all blogs.
I read the interview twice, and forgive me for being a stupid cracker, but I don’t know what you want me to glean from it. That because Deadspin has tabloid tendencies they deserve to be the fulcrum upon which an entire blogosphere is punched in the mouth? is that what you mean?
always remember…. sometimes what you see is all there is.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:25 pm
This is incredible to me that Deadspin is being seen as a victim.
Do you all relate to Deadspin because you can relate to Will Leitch?
The Black Table could have been one of the most important and influential works ever in journalism and it was morphed into Deadspin?
We are are going to have to agree to disagree.
Will said in the spot that he wasn’t a journalist but in the interview he’s a journalist?
I will not lump TSF or any similar site with Deadspin.
That’s like saying basketball and football players are the same because they are athletes.
Come on really?
That last quote is not truth. There is always an agenda.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I can speak for no one else Mizzo… but if what happened to any representative of all the blogs (which Will clearly was cast in the role of, whether he wanted to be or not) happened to be you, or DWill, or Temple…. I’d be the same kind of pissed off. Because it would be someone conflating the content on one blog with all blogs. That’s what this is really about, not about who was in the guillotine.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Always threatening to ban, that is why this site will never be on the level of Deadspin, you can’t handle people who don’t follow you lockstep, you don’t culture and audience you demand conformity.
Mizzo I read your interview, you have no point at all. The MSM news bodies hate all blogs, if they could discredit the biggest blog that means none of them are relevant (refering to Sports Blogs). Now if you are ok with that, fine, just don’t try to act all high and mighty as cryout when your articles aren’t picked up and ignored by the general public or the MSM, because you are a supporter of their actions to discredit your work.
Hell obviously you don’t care that they paint the picture of you being a loser who sits at home in his mom’s basement with no life. Whether you like it or not, you are in the same grouping as Deadspin, KSK, and all the rest.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Mizzo… here’s what you don’t understand. You’re already being lumped in with Deadspin, whether you want to believe it or not. Right now, whenever anyone talks about blogs, he’s talking about you just as much as he’s talking about Deadspin or the Big Lead.
Bottom line… what happened on HBO was an effort to herd all blogs up, conscious or not, and use the actions of one to marginalize all. Have you not seen that yet?
May 1st, 2008 at 2:08 pm
DMac you are right. I won’t threaten to ban you. I apologize for repeatedly saying so but some of the shit you say is comparative to Dennis Rodman frolicking in the NBA.
I appreciate the dissent and welcome anyone who brings it as long as it’s substantive.
Again, you all missed the part about the Black Table. I was hoping someone caught what Leitch was saying.
Dwil and I had a long conversation last night about this and I have to say it would be absurd for sites like ours to lump ourselves in with Leitch.
We’re totally different. Just because we have independent content we are derived from Deadspin?
No way.
I feel no connection to Deadspin and I’m sure Will would say the same thing about us.
Okori
We have to have the ability to think on more abstract levels. That’s the reason I said you can’t relate because don’t sit in our space.
I’m disappointed that he didn’t take the Black Table to another level. Writers have great stories that are killed every day and to have a forum to publish those stories would have been incredible–regardless of content.
I can’t relate to Will Leitch’s life because I’m not him, but I can only speak on what I see.
A cop can critique a cop better than a fireman. A teacher or NASCAR driver could do the same more so than a student or fan.
That’s just the way it is because they are thinking and doing on more deeper levels than those exclusive of their respective fields. You can’t tell me about what I do because you aren’t me or any off the other writers/journalists/bloggers out there.
You can only make an opinion based on the surface.
I honestly and with confidence say that Will Leitch is the bastard child of Bob Costas.
That is not a personal statement but more geared to what they represent.
Bob Costas still has this notion that Blacks had no cause to stand on when critical of the Barry Bonds coverage. Like Blacks are stupid to think race had nothing to do with it.
Point here is others don’t matter.
Deadspin does the same on a different plane.
At least sites like this open themselves up to having a objective discussion without pushing anything to the side as bullshit (except for you Dmac)
May 1st, 2008 at 2:26 pm
There is a situation just like what is happening with the blogs and it is happening in porn.
The FBI starts out taking a swipe at Max Hardcore under the guise that he is a not making porn but degrading women and his films are worthless in that they are not art. Other porn companies, such as Vivid,Playboy, Evil Angel, they do not like Max Hardcore either, they think is crap is worthless and degrading as well. They sit on the sidelines and laugh at the FBI using their might to crush Hardcore. The FBI wins their case, now what do they do, they use the verdict that got on hardcore to go after the Vivid’s and the Playboys because they have successfully made a case that if it isn’t art it isn’t protected. So you have the Vivid’s and the Playboys now being gone after because they allowed one of their fellow brothern in the business to be prosecuted without fighting and standing up for that person with money and additional legal counsul, now they are in the cross hairs.
This is what the MSM is doing to blogs (in the sports world), except they are going after the big boy first. THey are going after Deadspin, if they succede in discrediting Deadspin every internet based web log or journal will be compromised because they would be said to have no journalistic integrity. Now you may feel you are a different beast, and you maybe different as far as content, but at the end of the day you are still a sports blog. Them discrediting Deadspin would have a ripple effect because if you can’t trust the biggest blog you obviously can’t trust the small ones that don’t have corporate backing and such, so now you articles that hit points will be viewed as garbage, even if you have a point.
What you need to do, is what Vivid and Playboy should have done for Max Hardcore. You need to stand the line and come to the aid of a fellow sports blogger, for the bigger issue, which is the crediblity of sports blogs in general, no matter how distasteful you find Deadspin aka Max Hardcore.
T
May 1st, 2008 at 2:34 pm
I aspire higher brothaman. It’s not my fight.
May 1st, 2008 at 2:40 pm
It will be Mizzo. What happens if when you try to get an interview for this site and they tell you they don’t talk to blogs because there are no integrity on blogs? Will it be your fight then?
So you aspire to a higher standard, just yourself apparently because all of your friends behind you are fighting this fight (and more of your enemies than you realize). What fight would you share with Deadspin, or do you think they are just worthy of your contempt?
May 1st, 2008 at 2:46 pm
No one has told me no because TSF is a blog. We’ve built up enough credibility that we can pretty much get any interview we want. People get told no all the time so if someone told me no then I’ll just move on to the next.
I can only hold myself accountable for what we do at TSF.
I know DWil isn’t. I trust that Temple3 or Sankofa isn’t. I don’t know about MindRite, YOUBEENBLINDED The Comission or any of the others.
Whassup D? Where do you, HG or Tim Hop stand on this?
Those are the ones off the top of my head.
May 1st, 2008 at 2:46 pm
# Mizzo Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 2:34 pm
I aspire higher brothaman. It’s not my fight.
————-
Thats what Vivid said when the FBI was after Max, now the FBI has raided their offices and they are singing a different tune.
May 1st, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Dude to compare us to pornography is absurd.
May 1st, 2008 at 2:50 pm
yeah I didn’t like the porn comparison either.
May 1st, 2008 at 2:54 pm
but what happens Mizzo when the credibility vanishes, as Costas and Bissinger tried to make it do? Then will you care? This is about EVERY sports blog, conscious or not.
May 1st, 2008 at 2:58 pm
You may not like the porn comparison but it fits the situation perfectly.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:01 pm
No it’s not Okori
I’ve built up my contacts that will offer me other contacts. What you say is hypothetical.
DMac you lost everyone when you went deep into the porn thing. Sorry.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Hey, you have to go to the seedy valleys before you reach the highest peaks.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:11 pm
You have a point there.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:11 pm
so you don’t care? A lot of people do though. And i think their concerns are valid.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:13 pm
I will not defend what I see as negative.
I have children and they are my top priority.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:19 pm
http://throwingintotraffic.blogspot.com/2008/05/never-let-em-see-you-sweat.html
this explains it better than I ever could.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:21 pm
http://throwingintotraffic.blogspot.com/2008/05/never-let-em-see-you-sweat.html
read this and then let me know if you see what I am trying to say.
And I guess to this question “What fight would you share with Deadspin, or do you think they are just worthy of your contempt?” I already have my answer, and I’m disappointed in the one I got.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:36 pm
It’s not about contempt Okori. You seem to hang on my last word. Move past that.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:37 pm
I was hanging on the “I will not defend that which I see as negative.” not just the negative. There appears to be no fight you would share with deadspin, which is what i was disappointed about.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Link in porn, united you stand, divided you fall. Where stand means credibility maintained and fall is the loss of said credibility.
There is much to learn from porn, sadly the true lesson is lost.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:44 pm
You cats are not gonna lump me in with Deadspin–or any other gossip blog for that matter–and think that I’m gonna be down with it.
Get over it.
I’ll be back in a half an hour.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:44 pm
DMac the porn stuff is getting a little out of hand dude.
May 1st, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Michael why don’t you ask to be interviewed by the Big Lead? just to see if you still think they’re gossipy.
May 1st, 2008 at 4:07 pm
The fact that you stick on the industry, porn, instead of the situation, is sad. You all are in the same boat as Deadspin. In the eyes of the newspapers and book writers, SOMM, TSF, Temple3’s, Sanokofa’s, and everyone elses blog is in the same category as ProFootballTalk, Deadspin, TheBigLead, KissinSuzyKolber and the rest. Buzz wasn’t insulting Deadspin, he was insulting sport blogs period. Now you can turn a blind eye to someone attacking your medium of spreading your message or you can stand united and confront such idiotic mindsets.
If you choose to do nothing and the credibility of sports blogs are lowered, then don’t complain why the articles and topics you pick up don’t make their way to the mainstream. Just know it is because you did nothing when the medium you use to write was attacked because it supposedly had or offered any credibility.
May 1st, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Dude you went into this detailed case about the porn industry.
C’mon man I’m trying to hang witcha here.
I don’t care what the mainstream feels about Deadspin or other blogs for the most part.
We can only do us and hope a couple of friends decide to engage in a toast with us.
May 1st, 2008 at 5:53 pm
All blogs are not created equally. Every person however is different. No two are the same and that goes for twins, siblings, and the like. You have your opinion and I have mine. That is the beauty of blogs as variety is the spice of life.
May 1st, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Well if you don’t ever care about having mainstream recognized work then more power to you then.
May 1st, 2008 at 6:16 pm
DavidMac if you consider having a show on ESPN 2 mainstream then I have that base covered. Do your research.
And as always thank you for your kind words and wisdom.
May 1st, 2008 at 6:22 pm
I wasn’t talking about you Anthony, I was refering to Mizzo and TSF. I thought he had the same goal as Dwil, to have a online alternative to the MSM sports outlets.
As for you Anthony, I don’t watch ESPN except for boxing and football, what show do you have on the air.
May 1st, 2008 at 6:29 pm
I apologize DavidMac. I thought you were making a point to counter what I had wrote. To answer your question I was one of the minds behind the scenes and in front of the camera for 2 seasons on a show called “It’s the Shoes” a sports show that looked into the dynamic of sneaker giants like Nike, and adidas and the athletes that endorse them.
I also used to be a regular on Cold Pizza, which has also been discontinued.
May 1st, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Oh I’ve seen that , Fat Joe was kissing some sneakers on that show. I think he even pulled out some sneakers where the box had his face printed on it. Hey more power to you.
May 1st, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Yup that was the show, and thank you DavidMac. I appreciate your encouragement, sincerely I do!
May 1st, 2008 at 7:03 pm
DMac read what our objectives are in The Starting Five is. You’ve been around here long enough to know what our objectives are.
May 1st, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I guess I got you and Dwil mixed up, can’t blame me for that.
May 1st, 2008 at 8:05 pm
I hardly comment here but I read this BLOG everyday. I hate to say it but I agree with DavidMac on this one. An attack on one is an attack on all. I know this site does something totally different that Deadspin but all blogs were attacked and lumped together. I know the porn simile is a little bit much but it totally matches what has and will happen with sport blogs
Even Whitlock took a subtle swipe at this blog today
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8092720?MSNHPHMA
I don’t think about which blog has access or whose doesn’t, who writes hard hitting pieces or who writes mindless nothinginess. It’s about MSM believing that if information does not come from thier pen or thier lips , it is worthless.
This is what I see and this is the point that DMac is trying to make I believe
Sometimes we have to be our brother’s keeper even if what he writes is just junk.
It’s about being able to do
May 1st, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Good lookin on the mention Jason. It’s thestartingfive.net. I don’t know you to hate you. You know the differences I have with your work and it’s prominently The Black KKK reference. You created a term that will live in infamy and that’s foul.
May 1st, 2008 at 8:53 pm
I don’t think the JDubb you’re speaking to is Whitlock. As we’ve already stated he does show up here under his own name and take critiques from us.
May 1st, 2008 at 8:55 pm
He does post under his name. I’m speaking to Jason if he reads this post.
May 1st, 2008 at 11:07 pm
It was just a little weird that’s all.
And Mizz…. I’d like you to do me a favor and interview me about a subject near and dear to my heart. Check the website link for info.
May 1st, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Mizzo is right. To lump all blogs into the same category is ridiculous. Sure, that’s what Buzz was trying to do, but that’s just because he doesn’t read them. People who read sports blogs — and people who comment on them — know the difference between Deadspin and TSF.
Both have different levels of credibility, even though their content is miles apart. Mizzo gets interviews with very well-known journalists, and Leitch and his crew have some media connects as well, for sure. In that regard, they are both “credible.” And both have sizable audiences who come back because they enjoy the content.
Buzz was generalizing but he kind of has a point — MOST sports blogs are terrible. They’re poorly written, they regurgitate the same story they found on FARK, they attempt to be humorous and witty even though they are not, they are incredibly mean-spirited, and they loathe ESPN.
But there ARE quality sports blogs out there, and interested readers will find them. This one, Deadspin, FJM, TBL, etc. Media people who know what they are talking about know which sites are credible, and at the same time they know that just because TSF and Deadpin both fall under the enormous umbrella of “sports blogs,” it doesn’t mean they are producing the same content, and that’s because they’re not.
May 1st, 2008 at 11:48 pm
When you cut on the television or the radio and listen to the debates do they say Deadspin or SOMM or TSF or do they say blogs. The problem isn’t that blogs will lose the readers they already have, the problem is it might turn off people who are not exposed to sports blogs.
Personally I’ve seen crap on ESPN, Fox Sports, and CBS that has the same level of mean spiritness as some of the worse blogs that I’ve seen. So crap can be found everywhere its just people take the crap by the mainstream media as fact for the most part, rather than blogs.
May 2nd, 2008 at 12:09 am
The person who looks unfavorably upon sports blogs because of what Buzz said on Costas Now is most likely not your typical reader to begin with. I think people are taking the potential effects of his comments way too seriously. Check out the interviews TSF and TBL have scored, and you will see there are MANY well-regarded media people out there who obviously DO enjoy sports blogs — the trick is simply to find the good ones, and with enough curiosity that shouldn’t be so hard to do.
And to paint Leitch as some kind of victim is pretty amusing to me. Whitlock tore him a good one in his column, that line about his moral compass was great. And he’s right — Leitch lives for this kind of thing, playing the martyr role. Honestly some of the reaction to Buzz’s comments were much more childish than the comments themselves.
As for the mean-spiritedness found on the MSM entities, I’m assuming you’re talking about comments and not content but I’m not quite sure.
May 2nd, 2008 at 12:15 am
I’m talking about the content of articles, comments don’t bother me. I think the MSM coverage of Bonds and more recently of a good guy like Josh Howard are more damaging and malicious than anything I’ve read on a blog, and that is mainly because of their influence.
As for Leitch, I really don’t care for him personally, its the principle, just like the porn example I stated earlier. I’m not a fan of Max HArdcore, but I suppor this right to make movies.
May 2nd, 2008 at 12:19 am
Leitch is good 90% of the time. Of course I support his right to run his site. But I also think it’s entirely fair to call him out on some of the bullshit he does publish, the Matt Leinart photos most recently.
May 2nd, 2008 at 4:37 am
A lot of you had some good points, I think the main problem with the show was the fact that they were trying to cover way too much in 90 minutes.
May 2nd, 2008 at 6:03 am
Friedman…I can’t believe I’m about to say this…but damn you actually agree with me?
Wow. I appreciate it. I spoke to a couple of prominent journalists during the Sixers/Pistons game and got one’s take on the Leitch thing. I’ll post his interview Monday.
May 2nd, 2008 at 12:43 pm
I really don’t see anything wrong with the Lienart pics though, just like I saw nothing wrong with the Big Ben pics, Tyler Hansborough jumping off a roof pic, Rex Grossman, or Kyle Orton pics. They are just pictures of them having fun. I don’t think it affects his career at all, unless he plays terribly.
May 2nd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
The only purpose of posting those pictures is to humiliate them — NOT, as Leitch so hollowly claims, to “humanize” them. I really don’t have as much a problem with him actually posting them as I do for his so-called reasons for doing so: just say that you think they are funny, and they give your blog a ton of hits. But he is dishonest on this subject (in more than one interview I’ve seen), and for Buzz to tell him he is “full of shit” was correct.
Same thing goes for posting Stu Scott’s “text message” thing at the Super Bowl — which Whitlock hit on in his piece — that was just low. Same w/ the links to pictures of Peter King’s daughter — disgusting.
May 2nd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
I don’t buy the humanize angle either, but he is giving his audience what they want. Someone said it perfectly before, Deadspin has the publishing range from National Enquirer to Sports Illustrated and I don’t mind that and the audience doesn’t thats why they have such a big fanbase.
I will agree with you that he is full of shit with that comment, but when Buzz was ranting and raving he about the evils of Blogs, he was talking about all blogs, not the post on Deadspin or a specific post on TBL.
I don’t see how posting Stu Scott’s text message is anything different from anything put on TMZ, Mediatakeout, or other gossip sites. Like I said before Deadspin posts cover a large range and I see nothing wrong or unethical about that. Seems to me Stu shouldn’t be trying to pick up chicks in public if he is married, the same thing happens to all celebs, I don’t see why sports celebs think they should get a pass because in the past they used to.
As for the Peter King daughter issue that was KSK not Deadspin.
May 2nd, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Wow. I just read the entire comments top to bottom after I watched Costas Now, read Deadspin for the 3rd time in my life and checked out the sports blogs I used to read like TSF, stop lupica, and a bunch of others. I then read up on Buzz Bissinger’s dispute with baseball bloggers and sabermetrics (sp?) for over overstating his Kerry Wood NYT story and missing the empirical facts. For good measure, I actually listened to the Bissinger interview on Dan Lebatard’s radio show where he realizes he was wrong in tone about blogs but stuck to his substance which was the decline of our culture as exemplified by deadspin. Hell, I may even re-read Friday Night Lights again when I get home tonight. I finally read the TSF interview with the Deadspin editor. Whew! A lot to take in to make one very long comment.
The stand up for all blog crowds and the take them one at a time and leave the fight to others crowd are both right and wrong.
First, there is a legitimate fight about the coarsening of our collective community and the dumbing down of standards such that we cannot link all who use a medium (such as the interweb bloggers) with each other. We can endlessly debate the topic. Is TMZ/Gawker/Perez Hilton the same as People and Vanity Fair? They both do celebrities and rich people gossipy stories. But they are not the same. TSF is not Deadspin and I don’t confuse them either. In my mind we have been here before, whether it was comic books in the 50s, race music, integration, MTV, cable, video games and even books at various times (folks did burn Huck Finn and Catcher in the Rye).
Second, the stand up for blogger crowd is also right (as a lawyer btw I totally get the porn analogy, it is the old adage about not standing up for your neighbors until the government comes for you and is too late). Here the issue is that the MSM does not distinguish between blogs and wants to annoint itself the gatekeeper, the “quality controller” for the blogs. The lack of gatekeepers does not make the internet great, but it also does not make it entirely bad. At this early stage of the medium (the same “medium” which someone wiser than me said is actually the “message”) of blogging, the medium is being assaulted by MSM writers as being bad for our culture, our conscience and our country. Even when they back down it is only to decry the tabloid aspects and frequent humiliation of athletes for entertainment and its contribution to our nation’s decline. To accept the MSM as gatekeepers to our culture and the altar of good versus bad sports writing, is to cede them the power that blogs like this are taking back, one internet reader at a time. Folks like Skip Bayliss (sp) have long been bad at their gigs to me. When writers like him or better writers like Buzz take on blogs and are wrong, I would expect TSF folks to be up in arms. First to defend the full scale assault of a medium. Once all blogs are not lumped into one, then you can defend Deadspin against some criticism or join the critics of what they publish, just as you deride Whitlock for the damage you think he has done. I think you might find more substance other than the humilation and gossip tabloid thread - Deadspin is mix of substance and gossip but so are most newspapers. Criticism of content is fair, the beating of the medium as message was and is wrong.
Finally, in my long reading and listening journey, I often heard about the Matt Leinart pictures as an example of Deadspin’s depravity and cause for some in defending Deadspin. In my mind, there were many different slants on that story other than Deadspins humiliation meme and lack of worthiness for publishing such stories. For example, why note take ESPN to task for endlessly running the story if it was only about humiliation, what about the race angle (i.e. if Matt were black would the story have been more negative), what about the propriety of gossip stories on pro athlestes (i.e., how many athletes have mistresses or partying issues and how many sports writers know about it and ignore it until the tabloids cover it or black football players charter a Minn party boat or suspended by the NFL). Deadspin does gossip and publishes the embarassing stories. I see no way to avoid athletes being treated like celebrities in the near term and celebrities (and other public people) get treated like the substance Buzz told Leith he was full of, namely $h!t.
I was lead to TSF (as a black male reader of 40+) because I was dissapointed in the MSM ,such as SI, ESPN, Skip, Lupica, Whitlock, and Reilly (sp). I felt that sports journalism had become stuck in a bad rut of recycled stories and slants, while it missed big issues like race, class and culture that sits at the heart of so much of our American story. It used instinct rather than empirical data, it used conventional wisdom and rarely challenged that wisdom or more importantly its readers. To provoke and get a response was better than to think. The few writers that challenged this were called mavericks when they seemed to be nothing of the sort. Then again, perhaps it is asking a lot of sports journalism because the fourth estate can’t even generate that type of coverage when it comes to politics or science or your own local stories. But bloggers in politics and sports, music and movies and medicine, law and economics and science and medicine, have given us some new ground upon which we can meet and discuss in serious and often profane and disgusting terms. The coarser the material the more readers, listeners or viewers for any medium. You don’t go broke giving the people what they want. But we need voices that serve up a full meal of substance and sometimes good frivolity. Whether they are well written or not or in blogs or musty magazines, we need the substance. The low barriers to entry means everyone can have a blog, but the high barriers to entry in the press and TV does not make any of them good or better than the best blogs. And from what I read today in my long slog through the internets, the best stuff on this topic is being hashed out largely on the blogs. Go figure.
May 2nd, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Teej,
Nice post! I agree with every word.
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Mizz,
Is your biggest issue with Deadpsin the comments section? A very large portion of that interview with Will was discussing the comments and it’s come up in other discussions as well.
I find this odd in the sense that I’ve enjoyed posting on Deadspin more than any other message board/blog/news site that I’ve ever been involved with. For one, there is no spam. There are no attacks among posters (that I see). Since there is an audition process of a sort, there is a certain level of talent on display. And - believe it or not - there is a certain level of self-censorship involved in the comments. During the times where Will or usually Daulerio have stepped over the line, the commentators were usually the ones to point it out. To be totally honest, if the site ever starts to fade away, it is going to be due to a commentator uprising over the tone of the site. There are already a few cracks in the armor and plenty of complaints from the commentators- Will has outsourced too much posting, Daulerio is too vulgar, Weintraub is awful.
Anyway, the commentators drive the site at this point. Nine times out of ten, the comments make me laugh more than the posts themselves.
But I don’t think it can be emphasized enough: Will is not the comments and the comments are not Will. They are increasingly moving into their own separate spheres.
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Also…we are living in a world where Marvin Freakin’ Harrison is shooting people. If Deadspin didn’t exist, someone would have to invent it.
May 3rd, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Myron it’s a combination of the content and comments.
With Deadspin intelligence is not the issue, but anything I feel is desensitizing is just not cool.
It exacerbates and sets us up for an emotionless future. I can’t have that.
Sports is not entertainment in my eyes but when any athlete is disposed of with mere comedy it’s a problem.
I don’t care if it’s Matt Leinart or Mario Manningham…it potentially could be my son or daughter.
That’s just me.
The people I deal with view sports not as the life resolute but an intriguing microcosm we love but also very much learn from. There’s too much going on to simply place sports in the context of entertainment. There are too many discernible issues discussed–or need to be discussed–almost every single day.
The historical implications that can be derived from the discussion on Barry Bonds, Michael Vick or Roger Clemens are not entertainment based.
Is that a cop out when folks label sports as entertainment just because they shell out billions? Why is it all about them? What about the livelihood of the players. Do you think they view themselves on a whole as entertainers? Why do fans get to drive the market?
Are people being honest when laughing off life or does it pique and also contrast a dichotomy among our people?
Why isn’t there a Black Big Lead or a Black Deadspin?
There certainly are Black gossip sites but why not similar sites sports based?
It’s because we see sports differently. History affects Blacks more regarding sports and by that I don’t mean in a traditionalist sense.
General statement yes, but it certainly applies–specifically when Black journalists use our culture and upbringing to explain our vantage point.
White journalists do the exact same thing, so yes this is about race.
Blacks have fought long and hard to be included so I don’t think we are comfortable enough to now be able to laugh sports off.
Again, this is just my opinion.
May 6th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
I’m coming way late to this party.
If Deadspin/TBL will resist the urge to be dominated by a white point of view, there won’t need to be a black Deadspin/TBL, or a Christian Deadspin/TBL, or anything really. However, at this point I think there’s a market opportunity out there.
Looking back, I think this is an excellent opportunity for those blogs who do some real interviews to make our presence felt. I can’t believe how many other sports bloggers seem to believe that there are ZERO sports blogs that consistently do serious research, analysis, or journalism. We need to educate those folk.
Along those lines, let me gingerly comment on the porn analogy. DavidMac, while understanding your porn angle, I have to differ with you. The right move for an industry that is perceived to be illegitimate (whether it is or not) is not to do nothing while the weirdos are rounded up and purged, OR to defend those weirdos and get down in the mud with them.
What Vivid et al. (or us in the Leitch comparison) should have done was come up with a clear statement why they are different and make a contribution to society. If Vivid would have emphasized that Max is NOT part of the legitimate industry, while emphasizing that they do business the right way, then they could have weathered the storm. They didn’t, and now they deserve to be arrested.
May 6th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
McBias I’m working on it bruh. Trust me on that.
May 27th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
[...] I caught hell from a couple of my readers who assumed that because I run this blog I should have defended Leitch [...]