Friday Fire: Why Does Kobe Bryant Catch So Much SHHHHH?
One of the most compelling athletes of all time
I wanted to start a discussion on the best player in the game. Why does he catch so much wreck? Is it all about Colorado? Shaq? Phil? Is the criticism warranted?
Why can’t we appreciate the legend as it’s created? Why is he just now winning a MVP award? How much better is he than the league? Will the Lakers win a championship this year? Is he better than Mike? Is he better than LeBron? Where do you rank him all time?
How will the future judge him? How talented is he? Is he a machine? Is he dedicated to the game? Who runs the Lakers? Do you like his game? Is he a jaded superstar? Is he personal enough? Does he care about the fans? Is he driven enough to not just become a member of the pantheon but the pantheon himself?
Of all the players in history and you could only pick one, who would you choose your children to emulate (game not person)? Do you think he’s cognizant of his place in NBA history?
Should he tell people to kiss his Black ass?
When do you see him slowing down?
Do you think he’s learned from his mistakes on and off the court?
Does his personal life matter to you?
Is his personal life any of our business?
What does he owe the game and LeBron James?
How many MVP’s will he win? Does he deserve all the accolades as they come? Why were people calling Steve Nash the best player in a league with Kobe Bryant still in it? What does 81 really mean? What is your opinion of Kobe Bryant?
Leave the media out of it and think for yourself…
Why does Kobe Bryant catch so much shit?
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May 9th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Let me try and answer the questions as they come.
Honestly Kobe has brought some of this on himself, and only the most dedicated apologist of his would argue that he hasn’t. Badmouthing teammates? Pulling off a performance in Game 7 against the Suns where he only shot the ball like 4 times in the whole game (I could have the number wrong)? Asking to be traded from an organization that broke up a championship team because you couldn’t get along with the other star, and stood by you lock stock and barrel during a highly public rape trial? That’s all Kobe.
But some of this, more than we are willing to admit, is timing. Kobe came in right as MJ was ending. It was still too early for me to accept a guy who stylistically looked quite a lot like MJ and played that same game. The memories of MJ doing the same stuff were still far too fresh. I mean I like Kobe now, but right when he got big, it was still me coming to grips that MJ was finally done.
Like I think this was the same way with the Lakers transitioning to the Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Cedric Ceballos, and Vlade Divac teams. As long as Magic was still there, dripped in rings, people weren’t ready to let the New Lakers be.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
and a postscript to what i posted above: Also it became clear that Kobe thought of the Lakers as HIS team near the mid-point of those title runs, even when it was Shaq and Kobe doing it together.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
It all started with the Draft Day Trade that brought him to L.A., it ruffled some feathers and made some ask, Who does he think he is? He hasn’t scored and NBA point and he’s demanding a trade? He was a child of privlege with a swagger and NBA pedigree to boot and he’s bringing it all to the Show.
The series against Utah where he shot the airballs gave some the satisfaction that they were looking for. But in that rookie season, we witnessed some of what was to come and with Mike on his way out we needed it.
The three rings with Shaq and Phil were great and looking back this marriage wasn’t going to last between him and O’Neal, I just hated to see it end the way that it did.
Kobe needed to be released.
Once Shaq was gone Kobe went through pains on and off the court, some of it self-inflicted. He’s never going to be allowed to forget Colorado or that he was the guy that gave the Lakers the me or Shaq ultimatum even this season with the comments in regards to teammates and Lakers management; but like they say in sports, Winning is the ultimate cure.
We as a society are willing to forgive but not forget and will not hesitate to remind the subject of past trangressions. And I’m sure KB24 has heard his share. Despite learning from it and essentially reinventing himself as a teammate and person from what I’ve seen. The only time an athletes personal lfe should matter to us is if he/she is doing something that can potentially harm themselves or others.
It looks like he has a good 3-5 year run at this level left in him before we even notice a slight decline. People said that Allen Iverson wouldn’t last this long and I still haven’t seen a decline in his game or skill level.
Bryant’s place in history is secure, regardless of whether we looked at him as being right or wrong - he was honest and at the end of the day you have to respect that.
Is he better than Mike? Wow that is a question that I used to answer in no time flat, but now I’ve got to think it through.
Take away the rings and all and just leave two guys with their game who do you take? I’ll say this it’s thisclose and anyone that says different isn’t looking at it with an open mind.
In closing KB24 deserves everything that he’s getting now. Including our respect.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Kobe catches flack because he was a selfish player who was extremely arrogant and over promoted (ala Peyton Manning) and was viewed as the primary cause of the end of the Laker’s dynasty.
Was he the cause of the split of the Lakers? Hell no. Publicly he was perceived that way though and the rape allegations didn’t help.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
“Why is he just now winning a MVP award? How much better is he than the league?”
Media bias against off-court stuff and the infamous bullshit media bias that a team must win 50 games for a player to qualify as an MVP candidate. You might as well give GMs MVPs
“Is he better than Mike?”: Toss-Up
“Is he better than LeBron?” Yes now, but not later if LBJ becomes LB with a J.
“How will the future judge him?” Like Jordan if he adds three more championships
“Is he dedicated to the game?”: No other player is more dedicated to their craft.
“Should he tell people to kiss his Black ass?” Yes, but he wouldn’t have gotten the MVP this year had he done so,
“When do you see him slowing down?” 3 more years
“Do you think he’s learned from his mistakes on and off the court?” Yes… and got a new PR consultant too.
“Does his personal life matter to you?” No. I judge athletes on their dedication to their craft, and preachers on their morality
“How many MVP’s will he win?” This one might be the first of 3 in a row.
“Why were people calling Steve Nash the best player in a league with Kobe Bryant still in it?”
I don’t know if people said Nash was “the best”, but as far as MVP — especially the 2nd one — was because he is white and voters consciously or subconsciously identified with him more.
“Why does Kobe Bryant catch so much shit?”
a) because he brought a lot on himself (worst offense was calling out Shaq’s personal life IMO)
b) he was painted as “selfish” despite the truth: Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, and Smush Parker should not be starting for ANYBODY, let alone all at once
May 9th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
To whom much is given much is expected. Attitude wise Kobe is no different than Magic, Bird, Jordan or any of these young cats that are driven to be top level. The main difference is that he wasn’t media savvy.
We all can say in hindsight that Shaq was/is one of the biggest assholes in the league. dwill had documented how old dirty bastard (jerry Buss) -the owner, the one who signs the fucking cheques-decided that Kobe had more upside than Shaq. We also choose to ignore that Shaq plays, when eh feels like it. How would you feel as a young up and comer, driven to be great, seeing an Icon like O’Neil, farting his way through practice and some games? Disgusted? Deflated? Pissed? Would you too not say, get the fuck outta here bitch?
Those teammates needed to be called out, I for one am tired of seeing supposed professionals who are not dedicated to their craft, if you’re seven feet tall, you best know how to get a rebound. You’re in the NBA, best know how to hit even one frigging open shot. Too many of these cats cheat themselves; the fans and the game…fuck the owners!
You cannot strive for excellence and watch all around you pretenders taking up air space. Magic got rid of Westphall (sp), yeah they had conflicts, but there was no best way to handle it other than a mutiny, is magic really getting Jacked for that, to this day?
Kobe is given too much flack for his indiscretions and not enough credits for his achievements. As for the Colorado incident, in my heart it was consensual based on some of the transcripts from the trial. Kobe is guilty of what so many other ballers and non-ballers are guilty off…not keeping their dicks in their pants or their legs crossed (yeah female ballers aint innocent either).
Rape is a terrible thing and I for one would exercise severe punishment one a rapist, this is why the law cannot be too laxed in overturning all kinds of stone to make sure the story was true. You can quibble with me about this all you want, but find the transcript and review it.
The fence can’t hold two bulls in the pen. I think the main reason Kobe gets so much flack started was because of his head butting with the “Big Fraud Artist”. In modern society we are always looking for a villain. The fact we was not political only made his transgression more glaring.
If I was Kobe I would tell all you’ all to lick my balls and kiss my ass. What you telling me some media types aren’t doing that to other stars already?
May 9th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Westhead?
May 9th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Hey, I like your conversation here… I’ve set up a link for some more people t come over here, hopefully it bring you something…
May 9th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
[…] head over to the Starting Five for a full on Kobe Bryant discussion about his character and […]
May 10th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
1. Came directly from high school to be one of the leagues stars in a few short seasons.
2. Plays for the Lakers - one of the most popular, but also one of the most hated clubs in the league.
3. Has won championships - some would say because of Shaq and Phil. I’ve always thought they’ve been equal contributors.
4. Kobe used to be on the telly constantly endorsing something. This fuels already existing hatreds.
5. The “incident” in Colorado. People love to see the “mighty” fail. Sanctimony runs wild also. The ridiculous press conference he held with his wife didn’t help matters.
6. the Kobester can come across as arrogant and a whiner during harder times-see the last several seasons. The fact that the Lakers appear to be headed back to the top doesn’t help.
- As a sports fan, I try to root for the team. Athletes can be mindnumbingly stupid/arrogant/condescending at times. Even the ones on my own teams!! Frankly, whenever I hear a jock refer to him/herself in the third person, I get an urge to hurl large objects. Do I like Kobe - no - Am I ecstatic that the Lakers held on to him? Definitely, he’s the best player in the league! Would I cross the street for his autograph? Doubtful. Player worship isn’t something I subscribe to.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Sorry but I just don’t care for Kobe that much. I don’t have any real dislike for him like I used to when he first came into the Lig because he tried to come across as too polished for my tastes. The ‘incident’ in CO seems to have a freeing effect on him though because he does seem more genuine now about his opinions and open which is a good thing.
A quick story. When my son’s mother and I were together she being from LA was a big Lakers’ fan while I will always rep the 76ers. When Kobe was indicted for rape she said I was happy to see that because I hated Kobe and the Lakers. I told her that I hate to see anybody go down over some stupid stuff but I didn’t care for Kobe’s game really because it seemed he aped MJ too hard and needed to create his own legacy. I told her for me watching Kobe play was like listening to Kenny G. It sounds nice and is technically sound but after it’s over, it’s over. It doesn’t stick in your head because all it sounded like was what came before with no creativity or improvisation. AI on the other hand for me was like listening to Coltrane because while both players have high b’ball IQ’s just like Kenny G and ‘Trane knew/know music theory, the things AI did and does on the court just always moved me just like listening to a ‘Love Supreme’ of ‘Naima’ no matter how many times I’ve heard it before. Seeing AI cross the Great Jordan over three times, seeing him lead a non-superstar laden team to the Finals and actually lead the Lakers in the series before falling, and to still see him in his 30’s throw his body into the lane against 7 footers to help his team win made me a fan of his for life.
I can appreciate the work Kobe has always put in to make himself the best player in the NBA but as far as himself he’s just always rubbed me the wrong way somehow. I dislike him a lot less than I used to but believe me I doubt you’ll ever see me wearing a purple and gold 24 jersey.
May 10th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
DAmn Harvey, thats real talk.
May 11th, 2008 at 5:24 am
Harvey…I’m gonna hang that post on my wall lol…AI is the ish by the way…I agree 100%
May 11th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Kobe is the best. His MVP award is much deserved.
Congrats Kobe!
May 11th, 2008 at 11:48 am
I guess sometimes it’s lonely at the top.
May 11th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Kobe does not have a likeable personality. It’s easy to appreciate the skill, hard to like the person b/c we don’t really know him and he doesn’t want to be known in that way. We like for our athletes to be accessible. We like to think that we know them and even more importantly, we like to think that THEY LIKE US TOO. You don’t get those feelings from Kobe at all. Kobe is a surgeon, technically proficient and skilled. He can save your life on the bball court, but you don’t have to like him for the job to get done. However, we prefer our athletes to be primary care physicians. They can save your life too, but we also have a personal relationship with them. We ‘like’ them and if we don’t, we find another that we can relate to better.
May 11th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
spaceghost, that is the issue and the problem lie with us. The cult of personality worship is why the term fan (short for fanatics) is so out of controle.
I don’t realy care if this millionaire is an asshole, I just want to enjoy some good ball playing. Unless he/she/they have direct interaction with me, itis unfaire to color them with our expectations. No wonder you have celebreties seeking to limit their public involvement outside of some photo ops.
May 11th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Spaceghost,
When you say “accessible” are you talking about to the fans or the MSM?? If I were an athlete today I would not use the MSM to gain access to the public. They can not be trusted. Athletes can have their own blog or use youtube to document their community service. Also, how much do you need to know about athletes?? I mean I would love to know exactly what Angelina Jolie did to Brad Pitt to get him to dump his wife, but I go about my day not knowing about the particular prowess that Angelina has underneath the sheets… I get over my need to know.
Sankofa,
I couldn’t agree more with your assessment of the fan. When I read the blogs and the comments that are made about athletes I wonder if the money is worth it. It seems like some fans feel that they “own” the athlete. Do you remember when Carmelo Anthony was on the foul line and the fans at the Staples Center chanted “DUI, DUI”?? knowng full well that at least 95% of them were going to be at risk for picking up their own DUI charge.
The discourse in this counrty is so raw and brutal and maybe people like Kobe are too sensitive to let their guard down. I know that I couldn’t handle the scrutiny.. everybody is not like Barry Bonds who seems to be abled to thrive in that environment.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Nichole 10/20
Welcome back. Haven’t heard from you in a minute.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Modi,
I agree with most of your points but I don’t think Kobe ever thought his comment about Shaq giving women financial gifts would be told to the public. I think he was scared just thinking out loud to a police officer who should have never repeated that comment since it had nothing to do with his case anyway.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:51 am
I would have to agree with Okori. Dude brought a lot of this on himself due to his age, immaturity and perhaps insecurity. I read dwil’s theory on the “Kobe-Shaq-Buss-Phil-Magic soap opera” but i’m not sold on Kobe being the victim in that fiasco. Honestly, I really could care less because their personal lives doesn’t matter to me. I must admit that i miss the days of when you oculd watch basketball and not hear about “so and so” being arrested for marijuana or “this player” being arrested for rape. I guess we can thank media outlets like ESPN for that. But it disappoints me to see grown-ass men who are supposed to be professionals act the way they did. But I put all that crap behind because it’s the game that matters and not the excessive baggage that comes with it. That’s why I no longer watch media outlets (i.e. ESPN) because I can watch a game, come to my own conclusions and not care about a player’s personal issues. I have my own personal issues to worry about.
Kobe’s game is nice and maybe he should’ve won an MVP award already, or maybe not. I predicted that he would win it this year. However, when Nash first won the award, I thought it should’ve went to Shaq, who finished 2nd if i’m not mistaken. But I have a problem with the MVP award altogether. Most pundits say the award is for the best player on his team and in the league; others say it’s for the player who’s most valuable to his team; then others say it’s the player who’s most valuable to the league. Perhaps the problem is with the name. Instead of being the MVP, i think the award should be re-named to “Player of the Year”….or is that ALSO is what the award is for.
Also, does scoring 81 points somehow automatically make you the best player in the game or the best player of all time? Now, don’t get me wrong….it’s an incredible feat and you have to give him his due on it. But if Lebron goes out one night and scores 85, would we start saying Lebron is the best of his era or the best of all-time? The point i’m trying to make is take the accomplishment for what it’s worth which is a LOT to some and that’s understandable.
My opinion of Kobe Bryant has changed over the years. When he first came in the league, I thought he was a “Jordan wanna be” (hell, i still do). I thought he was going to be a great player when he learned how to play the game on the professional level. But what I saw and continue to see is a Jordan-clone (hell, he even chews gum like MJ!) I agree w/ my man “Two-Face”, what he does on the court is “nice” but you know that you’ve seen it done before. What pissed me off about his game is that prior to this season, he had issues trusting his teammates. And some will make the argument that his teammates weren’t good enough or that Magic and Bird played with HOFers, or that Jordan played with better players. All that is true but Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, etc. trusted their teammates. They knew that if they didn’t they would not win championships. It now appears that Kobe has learned to trust his teammates and that’s a sign of maturity. I hope that he can keep it up so that other people can learn to appreciate his talent and skillset.
Last but not least……
Kobe better than MJ? A toss up? All i’ll say to that is wake me up when this dream is over because that’s what it is — someone’s dream.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Nice comment brothaman but I would argue that Kobe’s team talent is far inferior to that of any of the players you’ve mentioned and he still might get it done. Something has to be said for that.
81 is 81 no matter what level. To do it against NBA players is amazing and deserves the proper respect. He averaged what 35 that year and didn’t win MVP? Ridiculous.
All of the great ones at one point or another complained (behind closed doors and ultimately publicly) if management wasn’t doing their jobs.
It’s not wrong for players to have team as well as individual goals. Smush Parker, Brian Cook and Kwame Brown were not the answer and if Kobe didn’t speak up, the Lakers might not be in the position they’re in currently.
Dallas had an offer on the table…Dirk for Kobe…and didn’t pull the trigger?
Wow.
Did Kobe have everything to do with Kupchak making moves? Of course not.
The man’s game is amazing. I just would like to watch it without all the bullshit. That’s all.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
mizz,
I feel you and I agree that his team’s talent is far inferior as well. But I don’t think anyone can argue that THIS year’s Laker team is probably the best since ‘04. That would explain why they sweep the Nuggets in the 1st round and could be on the verge of going to the Western Conference Finals….and then perhaps the Finals. So, with the maturation of Andrew Bynum, the addition of Gasol and Kobe FINALLY starting to trust the other guys, the dividends are paying off.
I don’t have a problem with him complaining to management about getting the right players. That shows his commitment to winning and shows Kupchak’s weakness in building a team. If you ask me, they should’ve fired Kupchak and tried like hell to get Jerry West back. But i think because the media has this dislike for him, they tried to make him out to be the “black sheep”. Good thing I learned NOT to trust the media a long time ago.
In putting the ‘81′ in perspective, again no one can disagree that it wasn’t a great accomplishment. But averaging 35 a game doesn’t automatically ‘lock-up’ the MVP for you….especially if your team doesn’t make the playoffs or doesn’t make it out of the 1st round.
….But this could be his year. We’ll just have to see.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
here’s the thing: Kobe killed basketball in Charlotte just as much as George Shinn did. Here’s how: When he asked to be traded on draft night that franchise sagged. if he had been a hornet there is a realistic chance Kobe would have stayed in Charlotte the entirety of his career.
Secondly Kobe’s stance about Shaq effectively blew up a dynasty. That’s not something I’m about to forgive him for, even though Shaq was clearly in the sunset by that point.
And thirdly… there is a sense of unorganicness about Kobe.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
With the talent he played with..taking Steve Nash’s (Cough Amare Stoudemire was the real MVP cough) Suns to seven games with that team?
It should have been almost unanimous and I’m a Sixers fan. I can’t stand the Lakers but I do respect Kobe’s talent for what it is.
It’s not about Kobe averaging 35 points or the monstrous string of 40 point games that season, it’s that he was winning games alone with his scoring bursts–and he wasn’t shooting at a low percentage either.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
So does he go in the HOF based on his time on the court or what you surmise he did off it?
Eff the selfishness. We don’t truly know what went on in LA. Trust me, seeing and speaking to players up close has been an enlightening experience.
Everything is not what it seems.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
“Why can’t we appreciate the legend as it’s created?”
Because it’s a “Legend” that’s been to a LARGE degree, ARTIFICIALLY CREATED. The league has been DESPERATELY trying to find someone to fill the HUGE VOID left by MJ. The league wants another savior..someone to make them feel good about the game the way MJ did, so they PUSHED him & the Lebron’s, etc.. to the forefront & tried to DUPLICATE on Madison Ave with these guys, what MJ created on the court & longtime basketball affecianados see thru that. The only people who are duped by this are these dumb kids today.
His star status was & is LARGELY contrived & it has plagued him with REAL fans of the sport from day 1.
“Is he better than Mike?”
Hell no & it amazes me after ALL THIS TIME, that this generation really is desperate to have their “version” of MJ, or they REALLY ARE dumb enough to “NOT” see that merely mimicking MJ’s game circa 1996-98, “DOESN’T” equate to him being his equal or BETTER! Especially since this mimicking doesn’t bring him equal or better production!
These kids today will compare “ANYBODY” that’s between 6′5 - 6′8 & can run & jump, to MJ, because they didn’t see “Air jordan” (’84-’93), they BARELY saw MJ from 1996-98. So they’ll pick the 1st guy that has a little flare & athletic ability & that can “somewhat” mimic what MJ CONSISTENTLY & EFFICIENTLY did for years & claim he’s MJ’s equal or yet “better”, when the FACTS show otherwise..
That’s how they try to compensate for not seeing “Air Jordan” in his prime..
How these kids can claim he’s better or his equal, when he CONSISTENTLY post marks on the floor, that are substantially WORSE than the person he’s mimicking, is beyond ALL logic & comprehension. Everytime I pose these kinda’ questions to kobe fans, the crickets commence. These kids are in love with the “STYLE” in which he plays & confuse that with looking like MJ’s, so they equate that to him being his equal..
“Does he deserve all the accolades as they come?”
The one’s that he’s earned, yes he does. He’s earned them.
But as far as the ones he hasn’t, No. He has to “EARN” them like the past Greats did before him. Too many of his delusional fans seem to think he has the “Entitlement” to accolades & honors & praise, that’s been RIGHTLY given to the Bird’s, Magic’s & MJ’s of the world, just because it’s of their “Opinion”, they feel he belongs their category, DEPSITE not having the production on the floor or resume to SUBSTANTIATE their claims..
“Why does Kobe Bryant catch so much shit?”
That’s easy…his delusional, ignorant & might I add young UNINFORMED fans…
No other group of fans are DESPISED more than kobe ‘homers’. Visit ANY sports medium such as this & you’ll see why this is so. They’re CONSTANTLY trying to DISCREDIT the work of REAL LEGENDS & CURRENT players to try & level the playing field for them to make these ABSURD comparisons. They do this to make themselves feel better about the shortcomings of kobe & how he keeps coming up short vs the people they keep “Claiming” he’s SO much better than, but when prodded to to supply FACTS to VALIDATE their claims, they NEVER can..Then you’ll get the following from them:
A) when confronted with the FACTS, they’ll just KEEP denying them, as if that “CHANGES” ‘em.
B) They’ll try & justify their opinions “WITH” opinions.
C) Lash out in petulant temper tantrums when they can’t refute the opposing argument.
D) Insist the FACTS don’t really mean what they say
E) Rank kobe based on their opinions, rather than what he’s CONSISTENTLY “Done” on the floor
F) Insist the other guy is “Hating” for stating FACTS
THIS IS WHY KOBE CATCHES SO MUCH SHHHHH….
May 12th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Dude you are beast but you need to temper that shit before you pop ya peeknuckles
May 12th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
mizz,
Correct me if i’m wrong, but in that series with the Suns, wasn’t the Lakers up 3- 1? My point is that it shouldn’t have even gone to 7 games to begin with. And who can forget gm 7 where he took only 1 shot in the entire 2nd half?
Bruh, I can’t stand the Lakers as well but, like you, i do appreciate and respect Kobe’s talent. But to me, in order to be the MVP (whatever the REAL definition is), you have to score more than 35 per outing (whether it comes in 40+ point outbursts) and get by during the regular season. If you are the leader of that team, you have to lead and help elevate the play of every other player on that team, and prior to this year, Kobe was not doing that. That’s why i went out on a limb and said THIS year, he would figure it out and start doing what he should’ve been doing all along.
May 12th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
LOL@mizz’s post to StoneCold
May 12th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
“Why were people calling Steve Nash the best player in a league with Kobe Bryant still in it?”
They weren’t. They called Nash the most “VALUABLE” player. There’s a difference..No way Kobe should have gotten MVP the last 2 years. Kobe placed 4th in voting the last two years for a reason!!
Guys like Dirk were shooting 40+% from 3’s while Kobe was ONLY shooting in the mid 40’s with his ENTIRE shot selection! Guys like Nash were putting up double doubles EVERY night while making OVER 40% of his 3’s & 50% of his 2’s!!
Kobe deserved MVP possibly 2002-03, but NO WAY he deserved it the last 2 years & some of U guys think he should’ve won those years? LOL!! Why? Because he won the Scoring Title? He shot-jacked to do that!
If U force your offense to try & be a big a big time scorer, it’ll “SHOW” up in the form of MEDIOCRE shooting %’s & this is the BIGGEST thing continues to utterly DOG him..
“What does 81 really mean?”
Yes It was an incredible feat, but a “1″ game scenario nonetheless. For some reason, his fans ALWAYS try & use that “1″ instance, to catapult him into the position as “THE” ALL TIME greatest scorer. Hell, George Gervin, David Robinson & David Thompson ALL had a 70+ pt game effort! LOL!!
Let’s be real for a second & put things in perspective..it was against one of the WORST offensive & defensive teams in HSTORY.
Kobe has NEVER had a 50+ pt game vs the #1 or #2 ranked defensive team in the NBA at ANY point in his CAREER & that’s a FACT. Contrast that with MJ, who EVERY kobe fan wants to use as the “Measuring Stick” for kobe, but will scream foul when it’s actually done & they don’t like what they see, 73% of MJ’s 50+ pt explosions were against .500+ teams..
In fact MJ’s 69 pts, 18 rebs & 6 assists on 53% shooting, is Hollinger’s “HIGHEST RATED” game “EVER” for Efficiency…
Again, kobe took 46 shots & 20 FT’s against one of the WORST teams in NBA History! He needed “7″ 3’s to get his 81 pts, MJ needed only “2″ to get to 69, so who’s REALLY the BETTER & more EFFICIENT scorer?
Not to mention, kobe only had “1″ assist in that game if memory serves me right..
“What is your opinion of Kobe Bryant?”
I think he’s a highly entertaining VOLUME scorer/shooter & nothing more. Last I checked, entertaining DOESN’T equal CONSISTENTLY Great..
May 12th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
I spoke with NBA players who were calling Nash the best. It shocked my face but I heard it on more than 5 occasions.
And for the record…they were calling Nash the best player in the L off the court as well. In the two occasions he won they were giving him the award TEN games into the season.
Chris Paul’s season dwarfs any of Nash’s. Kevin Johnson had seasons Nash probably dreams of having, dunked on Dream and took his team to the NBA Finals but never sniffed a MVP award.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
mizz,
I gotta agree w/ your point about Chris Paul & KJ.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Hey Michelle,
I’m here and I visit daily I don’t know enough about basketball to contribute to the high level conversation, I’m truly getting on my husbands nerves because I keep asking him to explain the “pick and roll” although when I watch Chris Paul I seem to catch on a little better.. also I didn’t like the new format because I don’t like jumping through too many hoops to post my opinions..
May 12th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
MODI:
I wanted to show you the slippery slope of Kobe Love. This’ll be quick. Up top, you wrote:
The slippery aspect of Kobe love is what do his greatest fans do with the question of shooting percentage. It is shooting percentage that may be the greatest gulf (and it’s an insuperable divide) between he and Michael Jordan. They simply occupy different universes when it comes to offensive efficiency and scoring the ball.
Which brings me to Elgin Baylor. As you know, I’ve maintained that Baylor’s career numbers (especially in seasons where he averaged 38 points and nearly 20 rebounds) were perhaps the single greatest examples of elite players not winning MVP awards. For your part, you considered his 43% shooting percentage as indicative of “chucking” (probably, don’t know for sure). In contrast, you noted the examples of Robertson and West.
And so the slide begins. By that I don’t mean to compare players as much as principles. Shooting percentage is not the only thing that separated Baylor from Robertson and West. Robertson and West combined seldom pulled as many boards as Baylor. Nonetheless, they shot significantly better — and so, a similar value should be attached to FG% in discussing Kobe Bean and Michael Jeffrey.
Closing the gap probably means leaving Jordan where he belongs and accentuating the value of Baylor’s rebounding. It may also mean reevaluating the greatness of Kobe based on the number of his attempts he is able to convert.
Kobe is the best player in the league - and he looks a great deal like Jordan but it is different. I would not slap him down to Kenny G status. He’s closer to Jordan than G is to Coltrane - but how wide is the divide?
May 12th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
By the way, I think Kobe is going to have a few phenomenal years - from the standpoint of overall efficiency and effectiveness. His peak production years are over. Jordan’s peak statistical years were between the ages of 23 and 29. That’s the way it is for most people. Kobe can certainly win more rings - but his execution, rather than his overall numbers, will be distinctive. He still has considerable room to improve as a player. It should be interesting if he can stay healthy and productive for another five years. I’d take 3 and be plenty grateful.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
“It may also mean reevaluating the greatness of Kobe based on the number of his attempts he is able to convert.”
I couldn’t have said it BETTER myself. This is “WHY” I ALWAYS refer to him as an entertaining VOLUME shooter/scorer. He’s not efficient at all! In most of his games, his shot attempts outnumber his points. That’s ridiculous! LOL!!
Anytime someone takes as many shots as he does “JUST” to score 25+ ppg & they ROUTINELY & CONSISTENTLY post MEDIOCRE FG %’s, that should tell U he’s not the scorer & shooter his fans try & make him out to be.
As “YET” another example of this, In 1983, the league AVERAGE for FG%, was 48.6% & 75% in FT’s, & 23.8% in 3’s as a ‘bail out’ shot.
Tree Rollins “AVERAGED” 4bpg & Moses Malone “AVERAGED” 15rpg in an era with LESS MISSED SHOTS!
That SAME year, A. English took 1857 shots, M. Aguirre took 1589 shots, G. Gervin took 1553, which shows you the UNSELFISHNESS of the league in this era, compared to the NBA in 2008.
Kobe in 2006, took 2173 shots! He missed 1195 (45%), which is close to how many shots these other guys took in a single season!!
“he looks a great deal like Jordan but it is different.”
No argument from me. Long time fans of the sport KNOW that to be TRUE. We SEE that to be true, but again, it’s his silly kiddie fan base who are the ones who make it hard for him on sports blogs, chat rooms etc.. Whenever uninformed fan boys try & use their opinions to prove their point, this is what brings the heat to them & their favorite player.
It’s kinda’ like a counterfeit $100 bill. To your average person (or young NBA fan who didnt see Jordan) they have to search? for differences.
However if you take your average fake bill to most bank tellers (people who got to watch the two all of their careers) it either feels different or something about the look jumps out, thats why people “pass” the bills at stores.
Kobe did as best he could at mimicking..some say he’s done as good of a job copying as ANY counterfeiter (heir apparent), but older fans STILL see through the “ink smudges and cheap paper”.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Stonecold, a question for you (and PLEASE don’t use CAPITALIZED words in your answer, it’s damned ANNOYING!):
How do you account for the more spohisticated defense being played today as opposed to the halycon days you often refer to when NBA players were more “efficient” and shot a higher percentage, etc.? Isn’t it true that shooting percentages were higher back then partly because team as well as individual defense was more relaxed? What say you?
Again, this is an honest question, so please do not answer if you’re not capable of being civil (indeed, no one can get “uncivilized” like I can, so let’s not go there, ok?).
May 13th, 2008 at 12:19 am
Tell me something?
What is wrong in trying to emmulate MJ’s game? I remember the second day of basic training, a lifer, bonafide killer and the leader of all us untrained scrubs pointed my group over to a group of “ossifers” and directed us to only emulate the ones that are successful. The others are to be ignored. We were to watch how the carried themselves, how they go about their task and most importantl how the react in crisis. Now the NBA is about men playing boys game, but the truth is the truth.
When I played semi-pro football, I fancied my self a Walter Payton clone, until realizing that I couldnt carry sweetness’s jcoks in my mind, much less on the field, so I adopted, I took what I could and incorporated it into what I can do.
This is similar to Bruce lee’s hacking away at the no essentials to get a t the esserntials. All the play ground ballers in the house stand up and tell me how many of you’all either imitated or seen some one imitate an estabilished star?
If his imitating Jordan is a source of hatred then don’t go there, it’s weak. Let’s just enjoy the players for what they can do on the court and leave the over analyzing of to the hacks. This way we can enjoy the game in it’s (semi) purity
May 13th, 2008 at 12:32 am
Nichole 10/20,
LOL. It’s good to have you back. I didn’t really care for the new comment section either so I’m glad the guys changed it.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:48 am
Temple,
I hadn’t really checked out the difference in shooting % between MJ and Kobe. MJ’s “prime 5″ was about 53% whereas Kobe’s “prime 5″ was about 46% (with benefit of Shaq). Even if the defense is superior today, that gap is no contest. That is my oversight. It is not a “toss-up” and I officially retract the statement. MJ is clearly best.
As for Elgin, I will narrow the gap because of the great rebounding that you point out with two years he approached 20 boards. Keep in mind that West also had two years when he approached 10 assists. Ironically, these two years came in Elgin’s final two years where he only played a handful of games. It might suggest that if West did not play alongside Baylor who created his own shot for all those years, West may have been a perrenial 9-10 assist man instead of a 5-6 assist man… food for thought…
May 13th, 2008 at 4:48 am
“Isn’t it true that shooting percentages were higher back then partly because team as well as individual defense was more relaxed? What say you”
WHAT?!?!? LOL!!!!
Wow….
Ask yourself these questions…
How can defenses be more “sophisticated” today, when the league CHANGED the defensive rules to ACCOMODATE & AID today’s perimeter players in scoring?
Why did kobe’s offensive production SIGNIFICANTLY improve “AFTER” the implementation of the Anti-Handchecking Rule & Psuedo Zones, if defenses are more “sophisticated”? And it’s not a “REAL” zone we’re seeing today, because the 3-Sec Rule prevents it from being as such.
The 3 Second Rule ALONE opens up the lane for easier driving/scoring because the Big Men CAN’T stay planted in the lane to protect the hoop, as they were allowed to prior to these changes.
Taking away handchecking, as they’ve done, ALLOWS for more space for the perimeter player to operate & engage in these And_1 dribbling exhibitions U see being done, because there’s LITERALLY no pressure being applied. U can’t physically disrupt the ball handler at all anymore.
Asking a perimeter player to not handcheck on defense, is the equivalent of asking an offensive or defensive lineman to NOT use his hands when competing! You’ve handicapped them!
And U think defenses were more “laxed” back then? LOL!!
Kobe Bryant in years that handchecking was allowed:
561 games - 21.77 ppg on 42% shooting
Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years handchecking was allowed (2001-04)
227 games - 24.29ppg on 43% shooting
Kobe Bryant “SINCE” the Anti-Handchecking & 3-Sec Rules of 2004-05 (not including 07-08)
223 games - 32.75 ppg on 46% shooting
His assists per game also “JUMPED” from a shade over 4 assists per game to 5.5 assists per game since the “ABSENCE” of handchecking.
If U think ALL OF THIS is mere coincidence my man, you’re crazy…
The mid 80’s thru mid 90’s was “THE” toughest defensive era EVER! That’s “WHY” they implemented these changes..to INCREASE scoring, accomodate these “Fundamentally challenged” guys in the league today & to get away from the defensive theme that dominated that era.
It’s Like Charles Barkley said regarding these changes: “They’re just trying to make the league easier for bad players..”
May 13th, 2008 at 5:15 am
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4 <— MJ vs 80’s Defenses..Gives U an analysis & breakdown of the defensive schemes he faced on a NIGHTLY basis..
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dxBhQKtG2Zo <— MJ vs 90’s Defenses..Again, gives U an idea of the defensive themes imployed by not only the knicks, but the league ITSELF when defending him..
The Defensive Rules changes is what’s ALLOWED kobe to even be INCLUDED in this conversation! When are y’all gonna recognize that?
It amazes me how people try & insenuate that the defenses today, are what’s responsible for kobe’s shooting & scoring shortcomings when compared to MJ.
Funny, these SAME defenses/defenders, just 5 years ago, when handchecking was STILL allowed, didn’t bother a 40 year old MJ or prevent him from going out & in 2 seasons of play, posting averages that are virtually IDENTICAL to kobe’s CAREER averages in the Reg Season, Playoffs & Finals..
These so called “sophisticated” defenses today don’t seem to bother Lebron..He’s bested kobe’s CAREER BEST for a season in FG% (46%) 3 TIMES ALREADY! They don’t seem to bother Nash, or the Ray Allens & Michael Redds of the world in terms of posting Great shooting %’s..
I know some of U guys are getting ready to counter with talkin’ about Lebron CURRENTLY stinking it up vs the Celtics in this years Playoffs, but again, if U guys hold Lebron to that standard, consider this:
kobe is shooting 26% in 3’s this post season.
Again, nobody ever mentions that because people are enamored with the “STYLE” in which he plays. 136 of those points are from within 15 ft & 80 of ‘em came from the freethrow line!
216 of kobe’s 273 points have come from 15 ft in or the Free Throw Line this post season. ONLY 57 of those points have come from further out, but his fans are always trying to act as if he’s Larry Bird or Reggie Miller from the perimeter or something. He’s not!
And then these SAME people will turn around & ride Lebron’s so called “Lack” of a perimeter game, as if he’s Ben Wallace or someone of his ilk..LOL!!
I don’t get it..
May 13th, 2008 at 5:29 am
@Sankofa
I feel you on what you say about how to be successful one should emulate success but what Kobe was doing at the start of his career imitating Jordan was a little overboard. I doubt when you played ball like Sweetness that you talked in a falsetto voice and wore a headband around your Jheri curls. There were times Kobe would do news conferences and I’d close my eyes and I thought it was Jordan speaking or the way he walked and like someone said chewed gum.
That’s why I used the jazz analogy in my original post because in anything be it art or life, you start off doing things the way you were taught but as time goes by you add your own little flourishes to it. You find your own voice, your own style. Kobe’s finally found his own game that’s almost independent of MJ and that’s nothing but good for him but it took him awhile IMO.
@StoneCold
Damn, SC, the things you say about Kobe are just…well, cold…LOL!
May 13th, 2008 at 6:51 am
Read this piece again fellas. The emulation of Michael was natural because his Pop played with Doc and wore number 23.
One more thing about Kobe Bryant: He is the most considerate and mannerly player I’ve come across. He really appreciated a real question when asked. AXG can speak on this as well. Eff what ya hurd. Don’t believe everything you hear people. We see and talk to these cats up close and personal and are taken aback when these cats come off as the disparate of what’s common knowledge. Chuck D told me this and Spencer Haywood as well. I will not write with the pack inaccuracy. I can only document what I see to offset the legend.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:17 am
@StoneCold…..
Interesting breakdown….you’ve really did your homework bruh.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Also, if i’m not mistaken…..didn’t the NBA move the 3-point line back to increase scoring when they outlawed hand-checking?
May 13th, 2008 at 11:55 am
I actually found the answer….they moved the line in during the 1994-95 season to increase scoring; the line was moved back some years later but i’m not sure if it was moved back to its original distance or not. I’m still checking on that.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:57 am
The NBA introduced the three point line in the 1979-80 season at a length of 23′9″ from the top of the key to a length of 22 feet in the corners. In the 1994-95 season, the NBA changed things so the three point line was a uniform 22 feet from the basket. The distance was reverted to 23′9″ in the 1997-98 season and has been there ever since. The 19′9″ distance is the distance of the college basketball three point line, which will be changed to 20′9″ for the 2008-09 season. The NBA three point line has never been set at 19′9″.
The NBA three point line was moved up 3 feet for the 2006-07 season to 19 feet 9 nine inches at the top of the key and 19 feet two inches on the sideline. The NBA three point was moved back three feet for the 2007-08 season to its orignal length.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Please disregard the last paragraph in the post before this one…..The 1st paragraph is factual.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
“@StoneCold
Damn, SC, the things you say about Kobe are just…well, cold…LOL!”
I’m just being honest. I honestly enjoy watching the brotha play, but It gets OLD hearing fans say one thing about his game & how it’s so superior to anyone currently playing & that has ever played, but it’s “NEVER” validated by “ANY” of his body of work.
It’s ALL their OPINION & NOTHING more & when asked to explain, the crickets commence & followed suit by a bunch of if’s & coulda-shoulda-wouldas & a WHOLE lotta excuses..
And what REALLY irritates me about alot of his fans, is their tendency to try & discredit other players accomplishments or abilities, without actually KNOWING what they’ve actually DONE, just to level the playing field to include kobe in the mix.
If kobe fans are gonna say he’s a “Legend” or the “Best” or “Greatest Ever”, don’t'cha think as a fan of the game, we SHOLUD INDEED hold him to these INCREDIBLY HIGH standards & precedent, that have been set by Past Greats to see where he ranks & if he TRULY deserves to be mentioned in that select company of players, rather than just automatically putting him there because he happens to be the player they like most?
And to Mizzo..my man, U say & I quote:
“I will not write with the pack inaccuracy. I can only document what I see to offset the legend.”
That’s EXACTLY what I’ve done since I’ve joined this board.
How’s it inaccurate on ANY poster’s part when we post what the man has CONSISTENTLY done on the floor, throughout his career?
To do ANYTHING other than that, is INDEED reporting INACCURATE information & further feeds the perception & not the REALITY of the situation..
May 13th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
I’m mainly speaking about the asshole stuff. I have to deal with my peers saying this about Barry Bonds as well. I’ve met each man and they were cool with me…so that’s how I’ll write.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
@mizz,
“’m mainly speaking about the asshole stuff. I have to deal with my peers saying this about Barry Bonds as well. I’ve met each man and they were cool with me…so that’s how I’ll write.”
That’s why i love your blog, bruh….and that’s why i keep coming back here.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Thanks brothaman. That means a lot.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Stonecold, aka the black John Hollinger (just assuming you’re black - with the lower case “b” - based on some of your posts, please correct me if I’m wrong):
I ask you an HONEST question with a GENUINE interest in your considerate ANSWER - I ask YOU to play NICE and to DESIST with this CAPITALIZATION bullshit- and you come at ME all HARD BOILED and ornery.
Why?
Don’t you know that ARBITRARILY capitalizing WORDS is a sign of SUBSTANDARD written expression? Your stats are well-RESEARCHED and extremely relevant, but can’t you MAKE your points without COMING off like a 3rd GRADER?
You got to GIVE respect in order to EARN it, home BOY.
Besides ALL THAT, THIS shit is HARD to READ! Don’t you AGREE?
Can’t DEAL with you until you learn to WRITE with a bit more SUBTLETY.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
“Stonecold, aka the black John Hollinger”
LOL!! That’s funny..And you’re right, I am “B”lack..with a CAPITAL “B” i might add..
“Can’t DEAL with you until you learn to WRITE with a bit more SUBTLETY.”
You’re offended by capital letters?
If that’s what’s at the core of your apparent problem with me, then there’s nothing else to say. If U say U can’t deal with that, then don’t…
I suspect there’s something else that’s really at the heart of your reservations, but I can’t & won’t try & to figure that out.
Something that trivial really isn’t worth my time..
U have the right to “NOT” respond or participate in the discussion on this thread, as I or anyone else does. I didn’t ask U to respond to any of my post, & vice versa. I was merely stating my sentiments on the matter…
May 15th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Stonecold, thanks.
I say what I mean and I mean what I say, always; and so there is no need for you to “suspect” anything about me.
And nothing I say is “trivial.”
All I was asking for was a little civility, which capitalized words and snarky attitudes about “Kobe fans” do not convey.
As HarveyDent and so many others have repeatedly said to newcomers, we don’t lambast and belittle people who take the time to write comments. Unless your name is Dave the Jolly Nigger (and even with him, I’m the only person who gets a kick out of calling him names; the rest of my TSF brethren make a consistent effort to try to penetrate his remarkably dense skull, for reasons that only they know - talking to you, Modi! -and that I won’t even begin to try to understand), then we try to foster a sense of community here. Flamethrowing is unnecessary. Just speak your piece, and then “be peace,” as Mizzo likes to say.
Show respect, get respect. It’s that simple.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
“All I was asking for was a little civility”
I’m uncivil for capitalizing a few words?
You’re joking right? That’s absurd! I’m not EVEN gonna entertain that nonsense…Please….
“Show respect, get respect. It’s that simple.”
Unless what I’ve said regarding kobe homers applies to yourself, where have I disrespected U?
This ENTIRE argument is bogus..
May 15th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Dust the haters off StoneCole, when he can’t get you on the facts your state, he’ll try to get you on something insignificant.
I’m glad you are here.
May 15th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
And who are U to tell me, how I should relay “MY” sentiments?
If I choose to capitalize a particular word to stress the emphasis that word entails, regarding how it relates to the subject matter at hand, then that’s what I’ll do.
I don’t try to tell U or anyone else what writing style to employ when posting, so what makes U think U reserve that right to try & impose that on me?
If this is “YOUR” site & wish me to leave as a result, then so be it.
But if you’re just another one of these posters who got in his feelings seeing someone post “THEIR” sentiments (like EVERYONE ELSE does on this board) & can’t take that those sentiments might be in contrast with those of his own, and he may not be able to REFUTE them, then man whatever..
May 15th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
@ DavicMac
Can U believe this guy? LOL!!
I’ve been uncivil to him for capitalizing a few words..Is he forreal?!?! LOL!!
If that aint the biggest joke I’ve seen on a forum such as this. I haven’t been uncivil to him. He’s just unnerved that somebody DARED to post sentiments about kobe that DOESN’T accomodate those of his own & worse, he can’t refute what I’m saying because he KNOWS what I’ve posted is true..
I’ve seen his type before.
The whole “capital letters” & “you’ve been uncivil to me” rhetoric, is just a cheap ploy to lash out for posting sentiments not necessarily in favor of kobe, as he would have it..
May 15th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Look everybody, the Jolly Nigger found a widdle buddy to pway wit! Awww dats so cuuuute!
Listen, Stoney, don’t let that fool David get you into any more trouble.
You’ve seen my “type” before?
Trust me, cornbread, you’ve never “seen” anything like this. But then you proceed to put words in my mouth, making assumptions about my opinion of Kobe Bryant that I neither said nor implied? But I’m the one engaged in “cheap ploys?”
Check the tape, stat boy; all I did was ask you a simple question, and you flew off the handle as if you were not only talking to me, but simultaneously trying to remove that stick which must be permanently jammed up your pretentious behind - and which happened to be the same way you were responding to everyone else who replied to your comments. Again, look at your own posts, doofus. You’re probably the kind of guy who smells his own farts and goes, “Wow LOL!! was THAT forreal? LOL! what a HOMER!! LOL! that’s the biggest JOKE! LOL! That’s 2.2 farts per minute and I’m farting for 57% THIS year! LOL!”
Now look at how other people were replying to you, and ask yourself, was all the snark and ill temper necessary? Did anybody give it back to you? No? That’s because - myself excepted - nobody rolls like that around here. And that’s all I was trying to tell you.
I tried to be nice to your stupid ass, but instead you take up with someone like Dave who gets no respect in these parts. Look man, clearly I’m wasting time with you, because you obviously cannot read, which is an unfortunate trait that you share with your new best friend Dave, and so I’ll leave the two of you to wallow in dum-dum land.
Welcome to TSF.
By the way, you can have the last word. Once you’ve opened your mouth and proven yourself an idiot, I could care less about anything else you say or do. So have at it, nimrod. I shall reply to you or your precious stats no more.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
If I wallow in such stupidity, prove ANY of what I’ve said wrong then…
That’s what’s REALLY eating at U & U know it…
“I shall reply to you or your precious stats no more.”
Well, as I’ve said before: “U have the right to “NOT” respond or participate in the discussion on this thread, as I or anyone else does. I didn’t ask U to respond to any of my post, & vice versa. I was merely stating my sentiments on the matter…”
You’re not hurting my feelings with your childish insults & not talkin’ to me..
Do what U do..