Celtics In 7
Going up to Boston to cover Game 1. I’ll have a piece entitled about KG entitled Black Pharoah: Almost Now when I get back Friday.
Sphere: Related Content
Going up to Boston to cover Game 1. I’ll have a piece entitled about KG entitled Black Pharoah: Almost Now when I get back Friday.
Sphere: Related Content
June 5th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Miszzo,
I have to disagree I’m going with Phil, Kobe and co. in 6.
I called the hockey playoffs correctly the Redwings took the cup.
June 5th, 2008 at 11:37 am
I meant Mizzo and Red Wings. OOPS!
June 5th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Lakers in 5. You and I talked about this already Mike! Have fun in Boston. If that’s possible……
June 5th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Lakers in 6, love KG and the gang are good people but picking them is like picking the Cowboys to win the Super Bowl…and y’all know I ain’t with that!
June 5th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Yeap brotha Mizzo we been on the same page all year.
Celtics in 7.
The question is how many games will Rondo and Walton cost their teams with their inconsistant play.
I say walton 3, Rondo 2.
Walton throws a bad pass in game 7 (like the zeke pass in the 80s) to set a game winner.
Pierce intercepts it and the Celts win (just like when havlicek (sp?) stole the pass).
Another thing Mizzo…..folks are forgetting that the Celts have more depth at the big man position then the lakers. This is very important.
June 5th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Also don’t forget what I wrote here
http://thestartingfive.net/2008/06/01/back-to-the-future/#comments
I broke down how I think the games in the series will go.
June 5th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Lakers in 7.
Kobe wins the Finals MVP after averaging 40 in the series, including an epic Game 4 in Boston where the Celts drag all the old legends out of the mothballs (Russell, Bird, Hondo, Cousy) and the Lakers win in 3 overtimes.
June 5th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Okori…………LOL!!!!
Man that was a good one. You had me crying!!!!
June 5th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Mothballs.
LOL!!!
June 5th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
from joy imagining what that would be like or from laughter?
and magically… around the 4th quarter….. someone turns the AC off.
June 5th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Laughter…………cause I could see it happening.
They might even dig up Red and sit him on the Celtics bench……..bones and all!!!
LOL!!!!
June 5th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
i get the sense that you dislike the celtics.
June 5th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Mizzo, Congrats on covering Game 1.
It’s well deserved.
June 5th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Nope have no problem with them or the lakers.
Not at all.
He11 I wish Kobe and Garnett could both win. But I know that isn’t possible.
Actually the only team I have a problem with in the NBA is my Bulls.
We could have had a great legacy like the Lakers and Celtics. But thats what happens when you ahave cheap ownership…
June 5th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Don’t get me started in couldas, shouldas and wouldas. We have a patent for the term here in Philly.
COULDA had the best frontcourt ever (Barkley, Malone, Daugherty) SHOULDA been in a few more NBA Finals, WOULDA beat the hell outta Harold Katz given the chance.
June 5th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
It is possible for them to both win, KG is winning by just appearing in the Finals!
We didn’t think that was gonna happen over the past few years!
June 5th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
HAHA………….funny CoCo.
June 5th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
I think in a way KG is vindicated by getting there and KB24 as well by doing it w/o The Diesel, etc. But the Ultimate vindication is hoisting that trophy
June 5th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Ron G.:
I don’t believe Garnett can be truly vindicated this season regardless of how the Finals turn out. The major criticism of Garnett has been that his finesse style is ill-suited to the playoffs — and further that his inability to dominate offensively in the 4th quarter has been a function of his tendency to settle for jumpers rather than impose his will on the opposition.
So far this season, that’s still ALL TRUE. The difference this season is that the game has sufficiently changed to the point where there are precious few low post players remaining who dominate the game. Garnett’s style is not the hindrance it was when he was with Minnesota and forced to confront true power forwards.
The Detroit Pistons were a perfect foil for Garnett and the Celtics because Rasheed Wallace (although capable) was guaranteed to decline the opportunity to dominate the C’s inside. The Pistons have gone fishing. If young guns in Atlanta and Cleveland had a little bit more talent, they would have put this team out of its misery a month ago.
If the Celtics think they saw something with Joe Johnson, wait until Kobe starts taking Digg ‘Em Snack bites out of that ass every quarter of every game. If they thought LeBron was a terror, wait until they see “8″ play with power over the top of Pierce and Allen and Posey — and still make the jumpers that LeBron missed.
Garnett, for my money, cannot be vindicated this year because he’s not faced an opponent with personnel aligned to the CORE argument of his critics. Garnett is not a choker. I don’t believe that. I don’t believe most serious basketball believe that. Garnett simply is not a self-first (different from selfish), power player.
Kobe is. Wade is. LeBron is. If the Celtics are going to win in 7 or 6 or 5 or 4, he’s going to have to try on the shoes of the Big Dog and walk around in them for a little while. If he wants to be a Shrinking Violet, he should put in for a trade to the Lakers or Cavaliers for next season.
June 5th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Garnett might be a teeny tiny bit over-something. Rated, valued or something. I can’t decide which. He’s a very good player, but when people do things like compare him to Duncan it makes me wanna throw up. It’s like comparing apples and missiles.
That was for you Mizzo. I know you’ll read this…..
June 5th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
CoCo:
I think you’re right on. Garnett is an excellent player, but he’s missing that special something that puts teams over the top. I was watching a few minutes of the 1985 series between the Lakers and Celtics. If you notice where players like McHale and Worthy and Bird began their post up moves, you’ll see they were deep on the block.
June 5th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Thats true Temple. But the problem has always been that Garnett (even though he has the best post up moves after duncan) has been light in the @ss. He has always been. The problem has been that he was never made to gain weight.
I remember when he was with the wolves how he would dominate in the post. Only to run out of gas and pushed off the block later in the game. Also remember Temple to be a great post up player and fight for position not only do you need to have weight but you also need to have a strong base. Strong at the legs. Do you see those tooth picks that garnett has.
Now he does give them a great post up presence. So does Gasol give the lakers. But lets be real neither one of these dudes is Shaq, Hakeem or Duncan.
Also Garnett is a second fiddle in the Scottie Pippen role. A player who can do everything but isn’t a closer. Nothing wrong with that. Every team needs a player like that to win a championship. I would argue just as much as they need a closer.
Oh and for the celts Paul is that closer. Garnett just supplies the post presence and defense.
June 5th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
When I saw great post up player I am refering to big men being able to fit for position in the paint.
Weight and having a strong lower base is extremely important.
As for the pistons (as I mentioned at the beginning of the season) they don’t have a superstar that is the reason they have only won one ring. Thats what foiled them more then anything.
The Celtics struggle with athletic (and quick and small teams) teams. Thats why the struggled with the wizards in the regular season. Same as with the hawks and Cavaliers.
This team is similar to the celtics teams of the 80s that weren’t very athletic compared to other teams and struggled with athletic teams.
June 5th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Origin - I agree with you.
There is no question that toothpicks are not helpful if you want to rock and roll on the box. With that said, I think the WAY KG posts up is significant as well. He posts by making himself long. He uses his reach (usually high) to extend and secure the rock. That’s the opposite of the way I was taught.
Regardless of how big your legs are - you can create a lower center of gravity by dropping your ass and squaring your legs at the knee — and you have to do what Jabbar and Walton did — set a wider box frame (squared elbows) for entry passes. You’re lower, but you’re wider — and it forces guys to come over the top. When guards drop down to take that pass away, you have a lower base and it should be easy to roll, seal your guy on your hip and head to the hoop. Hakeem did this all the time.
I certainly recognize that Garnett is a skinny dude - but he ain’t weak. He sets TOO HIGH in his stance nearly every trip down the floor and that’s one of the reasons why he is so easy to root out.
I like Garnett - but I can’t understand why he simply doesn’t go wide instead of going tall. He has amazing flexibility and agility. If he were to use that against some of the larger oafs in the league he’d give them fits right on the square. He would create more space for entry passes and more opportunities to shoot free throws simply by virtue of fighting for position.
June 5th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
He’s a jumpshooter which is fine if you like that type of thing. I personally prefer guys who are damn near 7 ft to play a little closer to the basket. But, he is very good at what he does.
June 5th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
That true temple. But realize as you said you need to stick your butt out. Garnett has no “BUTT”.
Also Kareem and Walton were of a nice size in the era they played. Weight wise garnett is farely small for his position.
Your still expecting a tooth pick to play with big boys. Ain’t gonna happen.
Thats why I get on folks here in dallas who swear dirk can’t be a great post up player. I ask them why can’t he atleast be as good as Garnett. He weighs more has a larger base. Plus he has a good center of gravity due to his legs.
Also your legs do have something to do with it. One of the reasons yao is so hard to get off the block is because his legs are like tree trunks. One of the reason players are able to get under Dwight Howard is because of his thin legs. He could use some more meat on those legs.
Thats what made shaq impossible in the paint. Not just because of his massive size and frame. But because of his legs. It was hard to knock him off balance when he took a shot because he was firmly planted in the paint. Plus he was able to gather himself and finish when taking a bump.
This is something Dwight Howard has trouble with. Hench this is one of the things barkley even brought up about him.
June 5th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Not to steal the post but hold on you guys read this.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/060608dnmetjacobs.187985b.html
Now let me guess he did this to himself just like the DC Madam!!
Yeah whatever.
June 5th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Sista CoCo Garnett isn’t a jumpshooter. He does a little of both posting up and shooting jumpers.
Now Dirk and Bargnni are jumpshooters.
One of the reasons the celtics are this far is because of garnetts post presence. If you took him away and added Dirk or Barganni to the team they would score zero points in the paint from the 4 position.
June 5th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Garnett is a jumpshooting PF. Mostly fade aways, but jumpshot’s nonetheless. He’s not a banger whether its because of his weight or whatever. He is a jumpshooter. Him and Dirk are very similar except Dirk has more range..
June 5th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Sorry CoCo but we will have to agree to disagree on that.
Dirk and Garnett similair I highly disagree. If dirk had the post up game garnett has the mavs would have never lost to the warriors.
June 5th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
We will have to agree to disagree.
Dirk doesn’t have many post moves, but I think you might be overexaggerating how much KG uses his post moves. Everytime I see him he’s shooting a 12-15 footer, but anyhow. We’ll see how this series unfolds. I like the Lakers in 5. 
June 5th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Coco, you still got some residual Atlanta hate?
Garnett done hit more folks witht he dream shake this playoffs than anybody since The Dream.
True, he settle for jumpers sometimes, and Temple is right, he tends to get most of his post catches up high with a straight back (good pick up on that one.) But Garnett can and will bang on the block. He and Duncan have had some epic battles. He doesn’t have the mindset that Duncan has, but he still is an amazing player.
Plus, he’s kept himself in amazing condition to the point where he has had very little fall off in his physical abilities over the years. Look at what has happened to Duncan and Sheed, and compare that to the decline in Garnets athletic ability. Sure, Garnett started off with more than Duncan in that department, but he and Sheed were about equal.
June 5th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
@Coco
If anything Garnett is over…..paid. All of the other accolades I heard and read directed his way are pretty right on. Top five PF’s ever, IMHO. Top flight scorer, rebounder, defender and all while playing the majority of his career in the West against the likes of Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Rasheed, Duncan, Webber, a young McDyess, Stoudamire, Nowitzki without a real front court compliment. That’s called going to battle everynight alone and producing. The jump shooter thing seems to be you kinda shittin on KG cause I KNOW you saw him work the Hawks over, ON THE BLOCK, during their 1st round series. I know you did.
@Temple
I agree that Garnett lacks what would be the fundamental technique for effective post play, i.e. proper post positioning. Thing is this ain’t Pete Newell’s Big Man camp and something tells me that endurance and lack of injuries probably is a result of not engaging in the battle that is posting up. That being said he does make life harder for himself because a ten foot baseline jumper is harder to make than a five foot jumphook. I for one would love to see him attempt more hook shots and close bankshots than pull up jumpers but what he does has made him a HOF candidate. He’s done it his way and now on the biggest stage can he produce enough to get the C’s over the hump.
**Garnett, for my money, cannot be vindicated this year because he’s not faced an opponent with personnel aligned to the CORE argument of his critics. Garnett is not a choker. I don’t believe that. I don’t believe most serious basketball believe that. Garnett simply is not a self-first (different from selfish), power player.
Kobe is. Wade is. LeBron is. If the Celtics are going to win in 7 or 6 or 5 or 4, he’s going to have to try on the shoes of the Big Dog and walk around in them for a little while. If he wants to be a Shrinking Violet, he should put in for a trade to the Lakers or Cavaliers for next season.**
I’ve witnessed, in spurts, Garnett being that player. The year he won the MVP and finally got out of the first round, he was that guy. He was the immovable object, the unstoppable force his team needed to win games and advance. Los Angeles offers no real resistance to him being that kind of player again. Gasol and Odom, followed by Radmanovic and Turiaf can’t check him one on one and I think he knows that. I look for him to have a huge series.
As for vindication fate didn’t deal him a matchup with any of the premier power players in the game today. No Duncan, no Stoudamire, no Howard, no Yao. I’m not so sure that can, or should, be held against him. A ring is a ring and I really think winning the title will cement his status as one of the best ever. Boston simply can’t win if he doesn’t play at a high level.
June 5th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
One more thing on the vindication premise…… Does anybody hold it against Hakeem for not having to go through Jordan and the Bulls for either of his two titles? Similarly what about Jordan not having to beat either one of those Rockets teams? I think Garnett is in a similar situation provided they can win this series.
June 6th, 2008 at 12:37 am
Again not to change the subject but rumor has it C-Webb married his girlfriend Erik Dates. If the rumor is true, congrats! I guess now he will be having little Webbs.
June 6th, 2008 at 12:39 am
I mean Erika Dates. Sorry bout that Webb.
June 6th, 2008 at 12:47 am
OOPS! Nevermind folks bad info C-webb isn’t married yet. Sorry for that.
June 6th, 2008 at 3:41 am
Is there a magnetic field surrounding the basketball hoop that is not allowing KG to penetrate to the basket??? If anyone has his cell number please text him and tell him to “POST UP”
June 6th, 2008 at 5:14 am
Jerold I think you agreed with my point about kg being primarily a jumpshooter while you were sorta disagreeing with Temple. I’m confused but um yeah I stand by my opinion.
June 6th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
I picked this matchup in Feburary with the Celts winning in 6 because they don’t have Bynum in the middle, but the Lakers have the tools to win 3-4 world titles with Bynum, Gasol, and Bryant.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Not quite. I said he needed to lower his butt. Establishing post position is not about sticking your butt out. It’s about having sufficient agility and strength to keep your butt lower than the defender behind you - so that you don’t get rooted out. Garnett plays too high on the box. He has tremendous agility which he doesn’t maximize because he plays long.
Lamar Odom has the opposite malfunction when he attacks the rim off the dribble. (The announcers have been discussing this for weeks.) He extends length wise, but doesn’t elevate consistently. The result - blocked shots, short shots, etc.
I don’t disagree with your point about the importance of legs - but I’m making a subtly different point. The stronger your legs, the easier it is to set big on the box. The weaker your legs, the more important it is to set low on the box. By making yourself shorter (using your agility) you maximize the strength of a weaker leg by lowering the center of gravity. It’s harder for tall players to do, but it can be done.
When is the last you saw someone post up with arms and legs square - essentially like an inverted swastika? It’s been ages. Guys post up like trees and reach their arms high. How many times have you seen defenders jump to the side of a player to steal or deflect an entry pass? It happens all the time. That’s the problem.
On a real post up, the offensive post player should never have to reach for the ball. If they set up low and wide enough, all they need to do is make sure the defender is shielded from the ball. Post players no longer protect passing lanes to their body. They concede that space and make it more difficult for entry passes. To me, that’s Garnett’s problem — and it’s a function of how the game has changed. Super athletic guys don’t usually need mundane fundamentals like that.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
They went to college - and played many, many more high stakes playoff games late into June. Talk to me about Garnett is four years.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
J-Dub, Jr:
That’s what I said. We totally agree. None of that is a reflection on him.
For my money, he’s already one of the best ever. I think he’s a phenomenal player. I don’t think he’s average or overrated or even very good. I think he’s a supremely talented player who is a true joy to watch and root for. I respect and admire him for many things - not the least of which is keeping his people CLOSE to him and representing history, integrity and character.
June 6th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
If Bynum was in the middle I could pick the Lakers in a close 7 games but The Lakers have no one who can matchup with Garnett over seven games. He may be listed 6′11 but he is actually 7′1 and The Celtic defense can match up with the other Lakersjust like last night. Gasol better have a big series because Kobe will get his numbers but not take over the game numbers like D-Wade did 2 years ago. 9-25 shooting is way too many misses for Kobe and only 6 free throw attempts in game one (home court advantage ?) Phil will bitch today about how game one was called.
The Celtics better hope that Paul Paul Pierce isn’t hurt seriously and Okori Bryant better average 50 to beat this team and they are going to need every single one of those points.
June 6th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
E:
Do you think Kobe will have many more bad shooting games like last night?
I noticed early in the game that a number of the Laker shots were going half way down and spinning out - it happened late as well. All in all, I counted 6 of those (with an occasional channel surf) - two of which were 3 pointers. I think the Lakers had a number of excellent looks at the rim — and probably played a little too hyped (even though they still limited their turnovers).
I suspect you’ll see them make those shots over the course of the series — and the Celtics D will have to pick up. It was excellent in the 4th. PJ Brown was huge on both ends of the court.
June 13th, 2008 at 1:53 am
Mizzo:
You were saying??
This series won’t really start till Game 5. Best 2 of 3.
June 13th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Eric: I was NOT in LA last night (Okori Bryant.) I was too busy having several OMG”s with my friend watching Impact.
June 13th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Well, er, um, see, eh hem hem hem.
Anyway, you know, like I was saying…
WOW!
June 13th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Is it just me or did Doc Rivers out coach the great Phil Jackson last night?
June 13th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
I think he did GN. I honestly think he did.
And i think we have learned our lesson with comparing Kobe to Jordan. A MJ team would have NEVER lost that lead at home in an NBA finals.
June 13th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
GN:
He’s done it in all 3 games. When the story of this series is written, he’s going to have to get some serious love.
Still - it ain’t over. It’s mostly over - and there is a sliver of room for a miracle. If Kobe really wants to be like Mike, he needs to pull this one out. Not likely - at all - but technically possible.
Doc Rivers has done some solid stuff.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
T3,
I agree with everything you stated. Doc Rivers has done a tremendous job in this series.
June 14th, 2008 at 2:36 am
and T3… thanx for the nice words on the blog. I’m still waiting for an answer from the subject.
June 15th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Might happen - might not. In any event, you were right to make the connection to the Brazilian style of wrestling which shapes so much of what goes on in that sport right now.
The marketing of personalities is one thing - the technique of the elite performers is quite another.
June 16th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
and the stuff that happens with the top guys, not the fraud Kimbo Slice, is what really drives the sport. And it’s a shame that DK never realized that.