Friday Fire: If the Los Angeles Lakers Win the Title, Where Does this Put Kobe Bryant Among the NBA Pantheon?
Yeah this is just one game so don’t get crazy, but dude came out and put a 40 spot on the Magic. Amazingly, he’s never put up 40 in a NBA Finals game. The wins mean more to Kobe. He has at least six to get right? 4 rings mean nothing to him. Mere obstacle in the path to greatness. Usually the Lakers win more games when he shoots 20 shots or less, but throw that all out the window after last night.
He’s coming for you Mike.
Whose your NBA top ten? Kobe wins this and he enters the discussion of the greatest of all time. Somebody bad like Doc and Elgin have to step aside right? Would you take him over Magic and Bird right now?
He ain’t Mike, but he’s definitely Mike’s son. Oh yeah, squash all that LeBron James talk for a couple of years OK? Thank you.
Yes you did sir. Just driving a point home to the lurkers who read this.
Tariq:
I think Stockton is clearly an all-time great.
Perhaps our difference of opinion is as you’ve suggested: philosophical. I also believe, like those in “the Parcells School,” that you are what you are or even more succinctly: Water is wet.
LeBron IS #3 ALL-TIME in Points Per Game. (That doesn’t mean he’s the 3rd best player or necessarily Top 10.) He is averaging 7 rebounds, nearly 7 assists and nearly 2 steals each game. He has played 472 games. He is what he is. He can only do what he has done. Sandy Koufax pitched 6 years. Is Bert Blyleven a better pitcher? Is Don Sutton? Of course not. Gale Sayers only played 6 years. Is Rickey Watters better than Gale Sayers? Of course not.
You can’t compare years — you can only compare performance. Very, very few people have performance numbers that are even REMOTELY comparable to LeBron James.
Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to cull any database of your choosing for a 472-game stretch of similar achievement. Forget about his age — just find similar numbers and then show us THAT list. I’ll bet you everything you own or ever dreamed of owning that not only is John Stockton NOT on that list, but many other folks who you’ve named are also not on that list.
When you consider the statistical likelihood that LBJ’s performance will actually IMPROVE (possibly every year for another 6 to 8 years), you should really step back to consider his performance.
There is no point in waiting for his career to be over. It is what it is.
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At the end of the day, legacies are not exclusively about numbers. It’s about our memories and the success of teams. LBJ hasn’t had team success commensurate with the legends of the game, but I think it’s only fair to evaluate his standing based on what he has done with what he has.
Temple3:
Let me preface this by saying that I knowing absolutely nothing about baseball. I have never heard of Sutton, Blyleven or Koufax.
Yes, Temple, I guess our difference of opinion IS philosophical.
That mission you want to send me on? Don’t even. If you want to narrow your judgment of players to a 472-game stretch, then LeBron James is, without a doubt, one of the all-time greats. He is a Great of the Greats and an Elite of the Elites. I haven’t done any research, but I doubt I could find many players who have done what Bron has done. I have no doubt that dude is a monster. His performance over the past six years is nothing short of phenomenal.
I’m not denying that.
If you want to enshrine him right now based on those 472 games, go ahead.
But I don’t believe you should enshrine players based on 472 games. Fuck Bill Walton.
And you know what really bugs me? It wouldn’t bother me if people just ranked him over the John Stocktons and Clyde Drexlers of the world. Fuck it, he’s probably earned that anyway at this point. I’ll concede that. What really bugs me is that they put him on the same level as the Larry Birds and the Magic Johnsons and, of course, the Michael Jordans of the world BEFORE HE HAS ACCOMPLISHED ANYTHING.
So, like you said, Temple, it is what it is. So what is it?
Answer: LeBron James is performing at a level right now for the ages. That is, Bron’s 2008-2009 season can probably stack up favorably against almost any season by any player, ever (with few, if any exceptions).
Does that make him the 12th greatest player of all time or the 7th or the 21st?
I know that Bron is amazing. I’m not stupid. But what if Bron’s game changes as he gets older, what if he has trouble adapting as his body begins to wear down, what if, what if, what if,…
It’s not easy to perform at the level he’s at now. People think, yeah, he’ll just average 30,8 and 8 for 8 more years like it’s a piece of cake. Like there’s nothing to it. I’M not the one who’s underestimating how amazing his performance has been these past 6 years, it’s YOU who should step back and consider his performance. Because if he can keep this up for another 6-8 years, not only will I consider him Top 10 all-time, I’ll do it regardless of whether or not he wins any rings.
But can he? It’s not enough to do it for 6 years in my book.
* I KNOW absolutely nothing about baseball…
Of course, I realize he hasn’t averaged 30,8 and 8 for these past 6 years. But I’m saying if he can continue at his current level for 6-8 more years, then yeah, Top 10 all-time, ring or no ring.
And, obviously, he could wind up being the Best Ever (TM) if he ever wins anything.
Tariq:
1) I’d say rather than concede that you know nothing of baseball, look up Koufax’ numbers during his career and compare them to his contemporaries — then read what his peers and others said. It’s worth it. Same goes for Gale Sayers if that’s needed.
2) After 6 years in the NBA, Michael Jordan had won precisely nothing. Magic and Bird were drafted by the benchmark franchises of this association and were paired with great teammates. As I said up top, there is little point in comparing LBJ to players who have had great team success. He doesn’t have teammates that compare to James Worthy or Kvein McHale or even Horace Grant. The time for those specific collective comparisons is still in the future.
3) Off the top of the dome, I can’t think of a player in any sport whose production dropped off at age 24 or 25 unless they were injured, addicted, killed or subjected to the whims of a coach. LBJ doesn’t have to worry about the 4th scenario and probably not too much about the 2nd scenario. The first and third are out of his hands.
Statistically, the overwhelming likelihood is that he will improve at least until he’s 30. That doesn’t mean he’ll score more or rebound more or have more assists. It means he’ll be a more efficient, better player. If he’s healthy, I think that’s a virtual certainty. Elite pro athletes don’t get worse as they enter their prime….they usually get better.
By way of an example, take Kareem. His highest scoring averages were during his athletic prime years from 22 to 28. But his prime shooting years (percentage wise) were from age 32 to age 39. Why? He played with better players including Magic Johnson. He was a better player even though his scoring went down. He was more efficient and he won championships on a regular basis.
If LBJ gets elite help like Kareem and Bird and Kobe and Mike, he’ll probably averge something like 26, 8 and 8. In the playoffs, that may go to 31, 9 and 7 or something like that. That’s what usually happens.
4) For the sake of keeping it really real, knock on wood, if LBJ doesn’t play another game, he’s going to the HOF as soon as he’s eligible.
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Bill Walton? I don’t get it. I don’t see a 20-point scorer there. Do you? Not sure about the point you’re making. Help me out. Thanks.
There is a larger point though. Guys in this conversation have all met 2 of 3 criteria:
1) Great individual accomplishment.
2) Great team accomplishment (championship(s)).
3) Longevity.
Let me put it this way, Bill Walton NEVER averaged 35 minutes a game. LBJ has never averaged less than 37 and his career average is over 40. That number should go down over time as his efficiency increases and his teams’ ability to make deep playoff runs improves. But that is all to be determined.
Walton’s accomplishments were of a collective nature (Portland was a strong, balanced squad) and he had one shining season — 32 years ago. He had 4 good seasons, won a ring, and missed the next season. So, the questions swirling around Walton began early in his career. He was never an Iron Man and as such, probably serves as a poor comparison for the prospects of LBJ.
Walton’s failure to establish longevity is a function of injuries. LeBron’s is a function of the calendar. It’s just not the same thing.
1-As for baseball, thanks, but I’d rather read about gingivitis. No offense, but I really find it to be a mind-numbingly dull “sport”. What the hell is an RBI anyway? But I got your point when you referenced Gayle Sayers. Although the average shelf life of a running back is considerably less than your average NBA player, but point taken.
2- You say: “The time for those specific collective comparisons is still in the future.”
FUCKING EXACTLY.
3- I like that you included “killed” as a cause for production dropping off. I’m not saying that there should be an immediate and dramatic drop-off in LBJ’s performance, but he could just not be as amazing as he is now. He could be playing at an all-star level, but not MVP level. You’re taking it for granted that he’ll improve every year. Not necessarily.
Look at guys (who obviously aren’t at LBJ’s level) like Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis. Not MVPs, but if you had told me a few years ago that these two cats would be completely irrelevant in 2009, I would have been surprised. I would have expected a few more all-star appearances between them.
In soccer I can give you tons of examples. Ronaldinho, Raul, Denilson, etc. Happens all the time. Ronaldinho is an especially intriguing case.
I mentioned Walton because he’s in the Hall basically on the strength of three seasons. I think that’s bullshit, but that’s just me. I’m not suggesting any other link between Walton and LBJ.
And speaking of water being wet, how come a role player like, say Sasha Vujacic, can give you very solid production one year and then turn to complete and utter shit the next? Or does water all of a sudden run dry? Why would Cleveland pay a guy like Larry Hughes an obscene amount of money if “it is what it is”?
Now please don’t say I’m comparing LBJ to these players I’ve mentioned. I’m not comparing him to them. OF COURSE LeBron is not Marbury or Francis or Vujacic or Larry Hughes. I’m just saying that it’s possible for professional athletes to have different levels of production is all.
ROTFLMBAO on baseball!! Hilarious!!!!
Stevie Franchise — See “subjected to the whims of a coach.” Francis’ last full season with 1 team was in Orlando. 21 points, 7 assists. Not bad — and then all hell broke loose. It is what it is.
Steph should have stayed in Minnesota. A PG’s gotta have quality bigs to roll with. He had the dude and wanted to be out.
Teams definitely pay for upside because they don’t believe that water is wet. They believe there is an oasis just around the horizon — but it’s really another 5,000 miles of desert.
As for Sasha, I suspect he’s a rhythm player that has to get into the flow of a game. He’s not a pure money shooter. He’s about 39% lifetime — that’s a streak shooter. Last year, he was 5th on the Lakers in playoff minutes played. This year, he was 10th. That means less court time, less reps, less rhythm and more misses. His water is still wet. He’s only 24, but the Lakers should demand that he work on his shot selection. If he takes better, higher percentage shots he’ll be more efficient even if he plays fewer minutes. This season, he came in and jacked as soon as he hit the floor. Ugly stuff.
BTW,
Francis, you may recall, was part of the Knicks infamous Rotation of 2,000 Point Guards. It was a mess for everyone.
OK, so look at the scenarios you’re talking about, Temple. Look at what you’re saying: Steph’s career didn’t pan out because he didn’t stay in Minnesota. Francis was part of a bad situation in NY. Sasha is having problems with shot selection.
These are legitimate problems that basketball players may have. And I know that LBJ SEEMS invincible now, but what if , let’s say, he signs with NY in 2010, and he ends up having unforeseen problems there? I’m not suggesting that he’s going to magically turn into Shaun Alexander all of a sudden, but I’m saying maybe he goes from Best Player In The World to, let’s say Third-Team All-NBA.
And the other reason I think we should wait to see how his career plays out is to see his career achievements. That’s the other criterion that I think is supremely important. I mean, you can’t tell me that “it is what it is” and that it makes no difference what LeBron accomplishes during the course of his career. That since he’s averaged 27, 7 and 7, it doesn’t matter whether or not he wins anything. He will always pale in comparison to the truly great ones if he doesn’t win. And he should eventually get a good team, and we will eventually see what he can do with it. Which is why I’m saying we should reserve these comparisons.
But understand this, Temple, I’m not denying LeBron James’s greatness. Dude is undeniably great. I’m only saying:
1- He should sustain this level of excellence for a couple more years (which, in all likelihood, he will) before we proclaim him as a true All-Time Great (TM) who should be enshrined into the Hall of Fame.
2- People should stop comparing him to the truly elite players in the history of the game until he has a ring or six. I’m fine with comparing certain aspects of basketball (e.g. LeBron James is a better passer than Jerry West; Larry Bird is a better 3pt shooter than LBJ), but I mean overall comparisons. It’s ludicrous to say that LBJ is as good as MJ right now. It is. Does LeBron know what it feels like to have the ball in his hands with the championship on the line? Would he know what to do with it? We’ll know the answer to that when the time comes. You can go to basketballreference.com and pull up a bunch of numbers, but the greats are the greats because they fucking WON.
Tariq:
I think you’re losing it. You’ve begun to wholly misrepresent my positions. Take a step back and perhaps we can keep it simpler.
There is really no point in YOU discussing LeBron because you don’t believe that players with 6 years experience should be in any discussion whatsoever about career greatness. That’s all there is to it.
My positions are only what I’ve stated, not what you’ve interpreted.
There is no reason for a list of 22 players you’d take ahead of LeBron because it actuality, YOUR REAL LIST has about 100 names on it of retired players — maybe more.
What about Dan Issel, Alex English, Elvin Hayes, Maurice Lucas, Moses Malone, Kevin McHale? I could go on and on and on and on. I think it’s that simple. You shouldn’t have convos about LeBron and the all-time greats until he’s retired.
BTW:
For all intents and purposes, you are now comparing Marbury, Francis and Sasha to LeBron — just so you know.
Or at least until he’s close to 30.
OK, thanks for the heads up. Yeah, The Machine is vastly superior to LeBron. That’s what I was saying. Thanks for pointing that out. And Eric Montross. Don’t forget about Eric Montross too.
Come on, man (or woman), be fair. Then you compared LeBron to some fat, out of shape baseball pitcher.
The list I compiled was not a list of players I would TAKE AHEAD OF LEBRON. Hold the phone, buddy. That’s not the idea behind the list. If we were playing a game of 5-on-5 for $1million, then I’d pick LeBron before I’d pick almost anyone on that list.
But is that how you rank all-time greats?
No.
And, I conceded the fact that I went overboard on the John Stockton thing. I said that I wouldn’t mind if people just ranked him over the John Stocktons and the Clyde Drexlers of the world. But people are already lumping him in with the Larry Birds and the Magic Johnsons. People say he has already surpassed Kobe Bryant. Whatever, man. If he ever does, I’ll be happy for him, but he needs to do more in my opinion.
And I don’t know about all those cats, but LeBron has not surpassed Moses Malone on any kind of list yet.
LeBron won’t be subjected to the whims of Mike D’Antoni — so cancel the Stevie Franchise comparison.
LeBron separating from Big Z and Big Anderson won’t be a catastrophe — so cancel the Stephon comparison.
LBJ’s problem isn’t Shot Selection so cancel the Sasha comparison.
BOTTOM LINE: There are 2 scenarios he has to worry about: INJURY and DEATH. That’s it. Everything else is under his control. Tick tock. Holla back when he’s retired.
Agreed on Moses Malone. Very few people have surpassed Moses Malone. While they don’t play the same position and LBJ is a better passer, Moses was unstoppable offensively and arguably the best rebounder of his generation — certainly the best offensive rebounder. LBJ gets a big edge for his overall defense.
OK, so why do you agree with me on Moses Malone though?
See, if I were I proponent of the “water is wet” school of thought, I would go ahead and rank LBJ ahead of Moses, because THAT’S WHERE HE’S HEADED, right? I mean, isn’t LBJ on course to eclipse Moses Malone on the all-time lists? So don’t we just bump him ahead of him right now? What does it matter that dude has only played 6 seasons? So has Berney Koufax or whatever the hell his name is. 27,7,and7 don’t lie, right? This is the KANG, we’re talking about, Temple! And King James, is surely better than Moses! Why do we have to wait? Why? Why do we have to wait? Why? Why? Why?
See all of these discussions we’ve been having? All of them? It’s just so when someone says that LBJ has surpassed a guy like Moses Malone as an all-time great, I would like someone to say: “Wait, hold the phone. Dude, amazing as he is, does not deserve that distinction YET. He PROBABLY will, in time. But NOT YET.” I don’t care if water is wet, if fishes fry in kitchen, or whatever. Fact of the matter is, as gaudy as LBJ’s numbers are, people tend to jump the gun as far as how great he is from a historical perspective. That is all.
P.S.
I will compare Dino Radja to LBJ in the future. Sheesh. Give me some credit.
Because Moses came into the league straight from high school — like LeBron and at the age of 24 he was a BEAST — and he was a far more accomplished offensive player — even though the points were comparable. Moses’ methods and techniques were incomparable. Moses was on some next level shit from jump street. So, that’s why I agree with you — not because Moses played 20 years and won a ring in Philly or because he was productive almost to the very end.
Moses had some wet ass water every day of his ballin’ life — just like LBJ. What was Stockton doing at 24? Averaging 8 points and 8 assists waiting for someone to retire and hoping Karl Malone would continue to run like the wind.
As far as eclipsing Moses, I think you have to recognize the apples and oranges element here. They play different positions. Do you attach more weight to being the premier offensive rebounder in the NBA OR to LBJ’s versatility. I say it’s probably a wash. I wouldn’t say LeBron is better than Moses because of his assists. Similarly, I wouldn’t say Jordan was better than Kareem. Kareem was unstoppable offensively. He was an excellent rebounder and passer and shot blocker. And he had rings.
Most people say Jordan was better. I say short memories.
The water is wet philosophy applies to Moses Malone.
By the way, if I were ranking all-time greats, I’d have Moses way the hell ahead of John Stockton.
The water is wet philosophy is really simple.
You are what you are. LBJ can’t surpass a guy like Moses until his game evolves. But, the evolution of one’s game is not solely a function of time. In other words, Caldwell Jones could have played until he was 200 years old, but he’d never be as good offensively as Kareem or Shaq or Ewing.
So, time is what it is. It’s not “the decider.” It’s one factor and not necessarily the most important factor.
Evolution in one’s game can be induced by a competitor as it was in the case of Magic and Bird. It can be driven by a mentor — as it was for Hakeem Olajuwon (student of Moses Malone). It can be driven by teammates. Kareem’s stats changed with the development of James Worthy as a reliable low-post offensive option.
It’s a fluid thing, but it’s about the present tense. I’m not trying to predict the future — just saying that based on what it is — LBJ warrants more props than have been accorded. Please be reminded that I didn’t take issue with most of your list.
1-First off, you’re clinging to Stockton for dear life, when I conceded like 8 times that I went overboard with Stockton. What more do you want me to say?
And, of COURSE Moses would be way the hell ahead of John Stockton. I don’t know why you think I’m some sort of John Stockton fan-boy. I mean, I mentioned him in passing. The list I mentioned wasn’t a carefully-crafted well-thought-out list, I just mentioned 23 named off the top of my head. You took exception with Stockton. Fine, no problem. Fuck Stockton. I haven’t really carefully considered the nuances of the career of John Stockton, to be honest. Fuck him.
Let’s rank LBJ ahead of Stockton. I’m down with that. Hooray. No problem. Jesus H Christ. (I’m a Muslim, and yet you made me invoke Jesus. Nice work.)
2- Yeah, you have a point concerning the apples and oranges element, but people tend to judge players who play in different positions. So yeah, accuse me of having a short memory, but I’ll take MJ over Kareem, thanks. And I’m a Laker fan, btw.
3- Of course Caldwell Jones couldn’t become Shaq or Kareem or Ewing. I won’t pretend I knew who that was, by the way. I googled him.
4- You say: “Moses was on some next level shit from jump street. So, that’s why I agree with you — not because Moses played 20 years and won a ring in Philly or because he was productive almost to the very end.”
OK. So in your estimation, is Chris Paul an all-time great? I mean, to me that’s just plain silly, because he’s only played exceptional ball for TWO years, but according to the Water is Wet Philosophy, Chris Paul is already in the company of Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson, no? Well, maybe not Magic, but let’s say he’s the best PG of all time after Oscar at least.
To me, he SHOULDN’T EVEN BE IN THE CONVERSATION.
LOL. We won’t discuss religion or faith. I promise.
That’s hilarious.
CP3′s issue is really simple: His regular season averages were off the charts. About 23 points, 11 assists, 5+ boards and nearly 3 steals. What happened in the playoffs? 16 points per game; and a quick ouster at the hands of Mr. Big Shot.
From where I’m sitting, that doesn’t put him in the company of Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson.
When Chris Paul does something that merits that degree of comparison, I’ll be the first one there with a cup of water.
You are what you are. He IS (effective June 16, 2009) a first round playoff loser who significantly underperformed. That’s who he IS. Who will he be NEXT NOVEMBER?
Don’t know.
Honestly, you might be getting the hang of this whole thing.
We agree on a great deal. Moses, Stockton, CP3. That’s enough to bridge a whole heap of divides. Keep it coming.
Well here’s your cup of water, Dr. Temple:
How about LAST playoffs:
Chris Paul averaged 24 points, 11 assists, 5 rbs, and 3 stls. And the Hornets lost honorably to the defending champion Spurs in a Game 7.
Should I get the bust ready?
And doesn’t that kinda prove my point? Isn’t that what I’m trying to say?
I thought you said that no professional athlete sees any kind of drop-off in production unless, as you like to say he’s KILLED or INJURED.
Well here’s Chris Paul. Look at his Playoff numbers from last year and compare them with this year.
That was last year. That’s water was WUZ wet. Just like YOU said about Penny and a host of other folks who appeared to be on a certain path. Do you know the REAL CP3? All we have is what we have — not what we HAD.
No bust.
Chris Paul’s drop in production wasn’t over the course of a season. In fact, his regular season production was up in almost every major category. He had a slight drop in production in assists, but it wasn’t statistically significant.
What’s different with New Orleans this year vs. last year?
For one thing, CP3 plays with 3 guys who shoot a very low percentage: Peja, Rasual Butler and James Posey. Perhaps more importantly, Tyson Chandler missed half the season and wasn’t able to get a rhythm this season.
In the playoffs, Chandler’s troubles caught up with the team as they had only 1 reliable low-post scorer. If you saw the series, you know West was worn down by having to deal with K-Mart AND Nene and Carmelo AND Chris Anderson coming at him in waves. Denver often doubled Paul to get the ball out of his hands and force someone else to run the offense.
That doesn’t make him a scrub. It simply means that his team has to adjust — and that fitting him for a bust would be premature. What you’re suggesting is equivalent to saying he should be the 2009 Finals MVP based on what he did last year. It doesn’t work that way.
He’s far from a buster but he hasn’t approached Magic and Oscar.
People tend not to get busts made who lose in the Conference Finals. He is what he is.
OK. Let me read that last post again. You just started to explain why Chris Paul didn’t produce the same results THIS postseason he did LAST postseason: Chandler’s injury, for one. West having to deal with Denver’s numerous bigs. CP3 having trouble with Denver’s strategies.
And then you say that that doesn’t make him a scrub, but that fitting him with a but would be premature.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. But that isn’t what YOU’RE saying. Chris Paul is an AMAZING player. I fully expect him to end up in the Hall of Fame. But if we are to employ the Water is Wet Philosophy, then Chris Paul is about as wet as they come. See, you say “People tend not to get busts made who lose in the Conference Finals”, but when we discussed Moses Malone, you said that you preferred him to LeBron because he was the best offensive rebounder of his era and because his techniques on the offensive end were unmatched. But it didn’t really matter that the guy won a ring in Philly and that he played at a high level for 20 years and remained productive until the end. So really, it shouldn’t matter that CP3 lost in the Conference Finals. It shouldn’t matter if he wins anything at all. All that should matter is whether his water is wet. And his water, my friend, was wet in 2008. Hence, according to the Theory of Tasty Fishsticks, his Water should always be wet, unless he is either INJURED or KILLED. That is your hypothesis. To suggest that CP3′s water was not wet in 2008 is to be guilty of hoops ignorance, plain and simple. There’s no way around it. His water was WET. He was who he was. In the regular season and in the postseason. And he didn’t have to win a ring or anything. He just had to be wet. And he was. And it was glorious.
And therein lies the flaw of the Parcells School of Thought.
Because Chris Paul is good at basketball. That’s what he is.
But he isn’t great.
Not yet.
Because you can’t be great AT something.
You can’t be great AT basketball.
Greatness is achieved.
And when Chris Paul ACCOMPLISHES a hell of a lot than just being wet, THEN he’ll be great.
Now, understand, a lot of this is just bullshit. A lot of this is just us humans imposing narrative on athletic accomplishment, but it is what it is.
I’ll give you an example:
Two dudes: Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady.
I mean, I’d say they have the same level of talent. Not too long ago, They were almost as good as each other. Their numbers aren’t that different: Kobe’s career 25,5,5 are slightly better than TMac’s 22,6,5. In the playoffs, you can’t blame Mac for his team’s first-round exits; he averaged a tremendous 28.5, 6 and 6 for his career in the postseason.
And yet, we mention Kobe with the all-time greats. We wonder if we can rank him higher than Larry Bird or Oscar Robertson. And as for Tracy? He’s sort of a tragic figure. Because, again, greatness is something you ACHIEVE, it’s not something you ARE.
And that’s why you scoffed at me when I mentioned John Stockton. I wasn’t saying that John Stockton was a BETTER PLAYER than LeBron James. That’s absolutely ludicrous. I was saying that John Stockton had achieved a certain level of greatness. LeBron, in my eyes, has not yet merited the status of ALL-TIME Great. That’s all I’m saying.
So is Tracy McGrady as wet as Kobe? And don’t bring injuries into this because he just got injured this season.
To me, if you want to stay true to the Water is Wet philosophy, then winning shouldn’t matter. You should approach basketball almost from a purist perspective. What matters is what a player can DO. So if a player can rebound or shoot or whatever, then how long he does it and how many championships he’s won is inconsequential. He is who he is.
And if nothing matters, then if you can do it for one season, then that’s who you are. And if you’re wet, then you’ll always be wet. There’s nothing to achieve. Just BE.
That’s a crock of shit.
Tariq:
You make things more complicated than they are. I am not the first person to say this to you — I know.
Moses and LeBron have a great deal more in common than CP3 does with Magic and Oscar. Size, high school entry, etc. The basis for comparison between a prodigious young LeBron and a prodigious young Moses is easy. Because there are so many similarities (different position notwithstanding), Moses’ later accomplishments, for me, were beside the point.
With CP3, I’m not suggesting he needs to play 15 years. I’m suggesting that there is no basis for lumping him with Magic and Oscar. Magic Johnson carved out his legend based on being a transformative player for his sport and based on winning championships. He won a championship as a rookie by playing center. What has Chris Paul done that merits close association with Magic Johnson? It’s really not even worth discussing Oscar Robertson. His feats were legendary dating back to high school.
You are trying to have a conversation about whether or not CP3 is an all-time great. What he HAS done is have two of the best regular seasons that any point guard has had. Regular seasons don’t make legends. He’s a true baller, but he can’t get fitted yet.
Perhaps the simplest aspect of this is the notion of the present tense. Once your water is wet, it doesn’t STAY WET. You are what you ARE — you are not what you were — you are not what you will be. You can only be what you be. Present tense. Based on what results, CP3 is a first round vic who got crushed by an old dude and his team got rolled like a bunch of drunk college kids in the red light district. That wasn’t true last year — but it is now. It’s why he has work to do — and it’s different work than Derek Fisher.
Derek Fisher is not a first round vic who got crushed by an old dude…He’s a guy with a ring that he earned by making big shots in big games. Derek’s water is wet. He may not be a HOF’er, but he has put it down and continues to do so.
The distinction that you’re missing is this:
You’re saying Chris Paul isn’t great at basketball YET.
I’m saying:
Chris Paul isn’t great at basketball right now (as in his basketball present tense — losing that series to Denver).
But greatness for Paul, based on last year’s performance, is not merely in his future. It is also in his past. So, you see, CP3 is surrounded by his own greatness. He has evidence of it in his past and he holds the promise of it in his future. The trick is to manifest it in the present. If they had managed to win with that team this season, he’d be getting fitted for a bust somewhere. He would own New Orleans for the REST of his natural life. Would he not??
The Parcells School of Thought isn’t “flawed” because its’ a truism. Water is indeed wet — by its very nature.
On T-Mac and Kobe:
If you cannot blame T-Mac for his team’s exits, you clearly haven’t seen them all. There have been many, but there was one exit that was assured when he simply failed to inbound the ball. Like Isiah Thomas and many others, he fouled up this “simple” play and it cost his team a second-round appearance.
If this is McGrady’s first year with injuries, what was he doing in ’05-’06 playing only 47 games? What was he doing in ’07-’08 playing only 66 games? He’s never played 80 games in his life. Someone should let him know that the season has 82 games booked for each team and that he needs to bring his high-priced ass to work every once in a while.
If you are what you are — what is Tracy McGrady? An oft-injured, supremely gifted athlete who is recovering from an injury. He was an unstoppable scorer and as talented an all-around player as has ever played in the entire league. He’s had about 7 super-productive years…and you won’t find many players who can eclipse what he did during his tenure, but…
Kobe played 82 games this season and last. He participated in the Finals this season and last. Kobe’s an 84% free throw shooter. T-Mac is about 10 points less. Kobe’s water is soaking wet. T-Mac is out of sight and out of mind — but we know what he was. Some doubt if he can that again, but right now, he is neither what he was or will be. Kobe is great…Kobe is the Finals MVP and the current champion of the Association. He’s in the game.
Greatness is a way of life. Tom Landry said, “Champions do it every day.”
For some of our favorite teams, we know that the deciding moment in a season often comes long before the final game is played. Great teams can be born in the middle of a season — long before fans and sportswriters take note. The players know it. Pick a team and Google the word “turning point.” You’ll see that many teams live by this very philosophy and begin to embrace a notion of themselves that is not widely shared — but will inevitably become how they are remembered.
LOL, ME? I’M the one who complicates things, Temple?
First off, I think you missed the distinction I made between being GOOD and being GREAT. I’d like to go back to these two definitions for a minute.
Chris Paul is good at basketball.
Similarly,
Isiah Thomas is good at basketball.
These are things you ARE. CP3 is just GOOD. He IS. He BE. He can score. He can pass. He can defend. He can do all these things. Isiah Thomas is also good at basketball and can do these things. Both these players are GOOD at basketball. It’s what they ARE. It’s what they BE. It’s what they ETRE. Their water is wet. Splish splash I was takin a bath.
Now, Isiah Thomas, because of what he’s accomplished in the world of basketball, is an all-time GREAT. Strictly speaking, this is not WHO HE IS, but rather, WHAT HE HAS ACCOMPLISHED. He is not an all-time great because he can pass or defend or score. Plenty of players, many maybe even more talented than Isiah, have passed through the cracks. And yet, here he is, an all-time GREAT. He is not great AT basketball– that’s not what I’m saying. He is an all-time GREAT. He has achieved it.
Chris Paul, in my opinion, has every bit of skill that Isiah Thomas had. But he hasn’t achieved a fraction of Zeke’s greatness yet. Will he? It’s possible, but I DON’T KNOW. You make it seem so simple, like unless he’s KILLED or INJURED, he (and his ilk) will be.
See the heading of this post by Mizzo? “Where does this put Kobe Bryant among the NBA Pantheon?”
To me, as I understand it, that means that when you start out as a rookie, you have ZERO legacy points. And as your career progresses, and you accumulate accolades, your legacy points increase (or remain stagnant, or even decrease). If you average 25, 5 and 5 your rookie season, that doesn’t mean that you’re automatically an all-time great because your water is wet. It means you had a phenomenal rookie season. Sure, your water IS wet, but that doesn’t mean anything when it comes to your place in the pantheon.
In other words, when LeBron entered the league, he had ZERO legacy points. People thought he would be a great player, but some had their doubts. He
averaged 20, 5 and 5 and won ROY. That pretty much shut the doubters up, but he was an all-star snub. Then after that he started averaging astronomical numbers. He took his team to the Finals. He had that epic performance against Detroit. He won MVP. So he definitely does NOT have ZERO legacy points. I’d say he’s accumulated, what, 928 legacy points thus far (a number I made up).
But cats who are NOT AS WET AS LEBRON have accumulated more legacy points. That’s why I put Stockton on the list. Because I figure having the most assists in the history of EVER count for at least 1,238 legacy points. Now you come along with your critique of his defense, and honestly, I’d rather concede the point then get into a whole argument about an archaic point guard in hot pants, so yeah. But I think my point about the way players are judged still stands. The way a career plays out, the way a career unfolds, affects the way you rank a player all-time. Otherwise, I’d take Shawn Kemp over John fucking Stockton any day. Because Shawn Kemp was fucking WET.
And you keep mentioning death and addiction and all these things. Hey, you never know, maybe King James winds up pissing it all away. How do you know?
So all I’m saying is, yes, LeBron is great. Yes, he has accomplished a lot already in his six years. In fact, I’ll tell you what: He probably IS an all-time GREAT already. But, he’s still moving up the pantheon. He’s still somewhere in the late thirties or early forties probably, with 928 legacy points, wet as he may be. Now, if his career takes its natural progression, then he’ll probably end up with 24,379 legacy points, somewhere in the Top 5 players ever.
Now, for a player to be in the league SIX years to be among the Top 50 players of all time is a testament to how great LeBron James is. It doesn’t mean that there are 40 players who are BETTER than Bron, it means there are 40 players who are MORE ACCOMPLISHED.
And you know what? If I were putting together a list of the all-time greats, then John Stockton would HAVE to figure in there somewhere, despite his defensive weaknesses. And he would probably be in the Top 25. Does that mean he’s BETTER than LBJ? No. It just means he has more legacy points.
I mean, look… people are saying that LeBron is better than Kobe. If you think LeBron is better than Kobe RIGHT NOW, then that’s a very valid opinion. They’re pretty much 1 and 1A in the league at this point one way or the other. But in terms of legacy? In terms of their place in the pantheon? There’s no contest: Kobe is surely in the Top 10. LeBron isn’t. YET. Why is that so difficult for you to accept?
My math was off. I meant to say he’ll end up with 2,379 legacy points.
I was being facetious about making this difficult. It always takes 2 to tango — and this is some dance.
Isiah Thomas is retired from playing the game of basketball. He WUZ GREAT at the game. Don’t you think? It’s not as if he was merely good and became great on the day of his retirement. He was a great player during his career. He was so great while playing that, on balance, his career was deemed to have also been great. Or, as you put it, he is an “ALL-TIME GREAT.” No argument.
My point is simply that Isiah Thomas was great BEFORE he retired and you will note that as his teammates changed (factors I’ve noted above) his statistical production decreased (as it should have) — so his statistical performance was not what cemented his greatness. He was an all-time great BEFORE the Pistons won back-to-back titles.
I get the distinction you’re making between good and great. I just don’t think you’re applying it to the right players for the right reasons.
With that said, let’s clean you up — you’re getting us both dirty:
You said:
I used the word “death” once. Perhaps you’re re-reading it in order to keep up with the flow of the convo. It’s not a recurring theme. Same for drug addiction. Frankly, I don’t see that on LBJ’s horizon.
You said:
I said:
The obvious implication here is that given how his team was manhandled by Denver, it would have been a miracle if they’d won. And, had he authored THAT MIRACLE this season, he would undoubtedly be considered a legendary player. This entire board would be talking about Chris Paul. Imagine beating Denver, Houston, LA and Orlando with just he and David West as reliable scorers. It would have been unprecedented in the history of the game. Stay with me.
As for your Legacy Points Concept — I love it.
The difference is you are looking at totals. I don’t believe I need to wait until a guys career is over to make that determination. I do not need to wait until Shaq retires to know that he eclipsed Bob Lanier and Jack Sikma and Robert Parish a very long time ago.
I can also admit to not giving John Stockton sufficient credit for his career achievements. As I said earlier, he was a tremendous player. I always rooted against Utah and do not claim to be objective about his liabilitiies, but I believe it is worth restating that he was absolutely legit as a PG.
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Finally:
You said:
That’s exactly the point. We don’t know. We don’t know if he will continue at his present level or improve as most others have. All we have is what we have. Therefore, in weighing LBJ, it cannot be anything more than it is.
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Tariq:
I wouldn’t make the argument that LBJ is better than Kobe now. With that said, I think the Lakers probably win this year with LeBron and Cleveland probably loses to Orlando with Kobe (not positive on that).
I can certainly agree that there are many, many players who are more accomplished than LBJ. And, of course, basketball is a team game. Isiah’s career demonstrates that individual stats and championships are not closely correlated. The same can be said of Big Game James. His regular season stats were average because he was a role player. His post-season performances were unbelievable because he was a formidable scorer on the block.
If I went top of the dome 25, the only way Stockton makes my squad is if I have to take 8 point guards and I am not allowed to go Magic Johnson(5), Oscar Robertson (avg. triple double for season), Clyde Frazier, Bob Cousy, Isiah Thomas (2), Tiny Archibald
(led league in scoring and assists on team coached by Cousy; won ring with Celtics in 1980), and Jason Kidd. Kidd is the only guy on this list and I honestly don’t know anyone outside of Utah taking JS ahead of him.
That’s just my preference based on accomplishments and Kidd’s superlative talent. That’s my point guard pantheon.
Fair enough, regarding Stockton. Although I wouldn’t place Nate ahead of him, but I’m not here to squabble over specifics.
And you don’t have to wait until Shaq retires because he has long since accumulated more Legacy Points than Bob Lanier and Jack Sikma.
Similarly, I would say that LeBron James has accumulated more Legacy Points than, say, Dominique Wilkins at this point in his career. So go ahead and bump him ahead of Nique in the pantheon. But don’t get crazy and bump him ahead of Julius Erving. YET. Hell, don’t bump him ahead of Patrick Ewing.
But do I think that LeBron will pass Ewing in the pantheon? Hell yes.
And it has nothing to do with Ewing being wetter than Bron. Because Bron is wetter than Ewing.
P.S.
Fuck Bernie Koufax
If I were starting a franchise now, you think I’d take a young Patrick Ewing over a young LeBron James? No way. I’d take Bron with no hesitation. But dude only has 928 Legacy Points as of June 18, 2009. Ewing has 1,463. So I HAVE to rank Ewing ahead of him, no?
Agreed.
Nice doing business with you, Temple. Your water is wet.
Thanks. Same to you. LOL.