I Challenge ANY NBA Writer to a Debate About Why Ricky Rubio is a Number Two Pick
Hasheem Thabeet changed last year’s tournament by his damn self. Now there are whispers he won’t amount to much in the NBA despite his above average height and shot blocking ability. I get Blake Griffith going one, but why isn’t Thabeet a consensus number 2 pick? We live blogged the Gold Medal game against Spain and Rubio’s line was an average 6 points, 6 rebounds and 3 assists. What in that line warrants a number two pick? I’ve said this many times, but foreign players have benefited basically because of a war. How many of our top 
stars didn’t make the trip to Athens because of security concerns only to be mad hated on by OUR own media? Nash and Nowitzki have three MVP trophies? What?!? Look, if the kid comes in and wrecks shop in the league then I’ll give him his props, but until then stop swinging on his nutsack. Straight up. I don’t care who you are. Bring your A game and debate me here or in your forum before Thursday’s NBA draft. Put up or shut up and that includes you too Lang Whitaker, Ben Osborne (hell anyone at SLAM for that matter. Especially after this garbage. Ya better than that.), Myles Brown, Doug Gottlieb, Bobby Knight, Mike Breen, Doug Collins…uh who else? I guess most of you have forgotten how talented Jonny Flynn is huh? Why is he not being mentioned in that spot? Teague will bang it on him. Curry will shoot his eye out. Hell Patrick Mills did. Maynor? Come on.
This type of hype almost gives the cat the ROY because of all the attention he’ll receive during the year. Reminds me of how they were giving Nash the MVP after ten games in a season where Kobe scored 81 points in a game or the year Shaq helped turn around Miami and Nash still ran away with the award. How many rings do Dirk and Nash have? How many do Kobe and Shaq have? This cat better be scrutinized like any other BLACK player who has come into the league with so much hype. A line of 6 points and 6 rebounds his rookie year is not gonna cut it. No excuses. He’ll definitely not get any here. For the record, this has nothing to do with Ricky Rubio the person….just the hype. I don’t care how many years Rubio has spent in a SPANISH pro league, until he does it over here then shut the hell up. This BS is not based on talent alone. Why am I talking about this? Ask the sleep deprived Madison Square Garden crowd after 6 overtimes who the man was and you have your answer.
Sphere: Related Content
June 22nd, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Just because I’m curious.Michael how many times have you seen Rubio play?Would it be different in your eyes if he were a black European player?
June 22nd, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Michael you keep mentioning the gold medal game like it’s the only game he’s ever played in. We can pick out one game for anyone who has ever been drafted and make a case for or against them. I don’t know how Rubio or any of the others will turn out, but Brandon Jennings went overseas because he thought it would better prepare him for the NBA so using that line of thinking should we not assume that since Ricky has been playing professionally in that league that he may be prepared for the NBA? No one in the draft has done it on an NBA level so we can’t say wait and see before we start assessing them. It’s all hype until the season starts no matter who it is. And about Thabeet. He looks clumsy as hell and his post game is suspect.
June 22nd, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Rubio broke his wrist in the first quarter of the gold medal game, dude… That’s why his line was so pedestrian. Maybe, I don’t know, two and a half minutes of research would have dug that up? I mean, just ANY type of research so you could argue any point validly would be great.
Why does Rubio deserve to go in the NBA draft at pick two? Well, besides leading the ACB in steals and assists while playing far less minutes than many players eleven years his senior, and having tons mores professional experience over most any other person in the draft, it’s because this draft class is weak as sh*t, and Thabeet is no different. He was suppose to straight up dominate his freshmen year, and it has taken him THREE YEARS to dominate DEFENSIVELY and, at an athletic 7′3, he STILL can’t do anything offensively. If anything, the hype around THABEET is ridiculous given his pure lack of skill and basketball IQ.
Rubio has been playing in a professional league longer than Thabeet has been playing. He has -LEAD- his team to playoff runs, while Thabeet wasn’t even the leader on his college team. Will Rubio go second? No, because Memphis has a history of treating their spanish players like utter crap, and Rubio doesn’t want to put himself through with that. But make no mistake, Rubio is leagues beyond Thabeet. Hype is usually backed up by fact. Just cause Rubio is the next “great white hope”, doesn’t mean there isn’t a legitimate reason behind that.
June 22nd, 2009 at 2:46 pm
I really wonder if this is all Jenning’s fault… As the dude was going overseas, everyone who was rooting for Brandon was clamoring about how GREAT the Euroleagues was and how it would develop Jennings THAT much faster than simply going to college. Now that his trip was an absolute failure, those same people are taking it all back, saying how playing well in Europe means nothing and the league isn’t that great anyway.
It’s all very confusing to me. If Rubio can be one of the best players in the ACB, a league universally recognized as superior to the NCAAs, why couldn’t he be great in the NBA?
June 22nd, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Dude,
You clearly don’t know anything about overseas hoops. The talent level over there is WAY better than american college hoops. Shoot, most of the top Americans go there anyway. So for you to diss Rubio (because he’s white. Clearly) shows that you have no clue.
He’s been putting up numbers for the past few years as AN 18 YEAR OLD. in the EUROLEAGUE. The NCAA is a joke compared to the Euroleague. Granted, Spain’s league probably isn’t as good as Italy, but it’s definitely one of the top 3 pro leagues in Europe. Brandon Jennings would have been a star in College, but he can barely get time for ROMA. Which check it man, is NOT A EUROLEAGUE level team.
Since you clearly have absolutely no understanding about International hoops (because you seem to think America dominates still), I’d be happy to break down to you that the top clubs from each European Leauge plan a mini season during the year. It’s like the Champion’s League in European soccer.
So if Ricky Rubio is getting it done at the tender ages of 17 and 18 against top, top, top level of Europe (a league that is home to the best MEN who don’t make it in the NBA btw, and is littered with NCAA all-americans who are now better players than they were then).
So you can crow on and on about Johny Flynn, but he hasn’t done it against the top level like Rubio. For you to think that American college hoops is better than even the Spanish SECOND DIVISION is rather humorous to those of us that know European hoops (like NBA, agents, coaches, analysts, etc.). This cat’s not Darko, he’s put up the playing time and numbers.
Get a passport bro, and broaden your horizons. The NCAA is sub-standard to European hoops, and Ricky’s proven himself against the real talent more than any of the black american dudes you are so indignant about. In fact, be honest. How many games in Europe you see? Cause I’ve got family that’s played in Italy, Spain and Germany. And they’ll all tell you that the Big East ain’t shhh compared to the top European leagues.
No one doubts that white dudes get more hype. This country is white majority and we know there’s racicm. But you’ve missed the mark here. BIG TIME. You’re talking all race and are ignorant on the hoops tip.
Xenophobia is ugly man……
June 22nd, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Thabeet can indirectly blame the injury-plagued centers in the Association for this state of affairs. Don’t think that GMs haven’t seen what’s happened to Greg Oden (touted as “the defense is there for sure, the offense will come”) and even Yao in the post-season and arranged their draft processes accordingly. Bigs are getting viewed as injury-plagued more and more; combine with the rules that open up guard play and Rubio looks more attractive. I’m not saying this is right.
However, I’m with Co Co. Thabeet, offensively, is not that good, and I’d rather see more of a post game before picking him #2.
June 22nd, 2009 at 3:33 pm
In the NBA, there is obviously a shortage of big men right. Rubio is just as much a project as Hasheem. The questioin I have again is what makes him better than any of the other pgs? What’s the criteria? Flynn is a stud and he’s homegrown? Is Rubio gonna be scrutinized defensively or given a pass like Nash and Stockton? Why is AI always slammed defensively? Let’s be real here. I never said the kid is yok, just give me a reason why he is the top pg. Something definitive like his draft standing please.
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:09 pm
No doubt that Nash and Stockton were/are defensive liabilities, but are you telling me (skin color aside) that if you (a NBA GM) had the chance to get the next Nash or Stockton, you wouldn’t use the #2 or #3 pick?
If you look at what people have written about Rubio, the cons are:
-Good, not great athlete
-defense
How did Tony Parker turn out for the Spurs? This kids got much better credentials than Tony coming into the league.
I think Flynn is going to be a good player in the league (and almost certainly will put up more points as a rookie), but if you’re going to go strictly on performance against top talent, then Rubio deservedly has proven more. The kids, got handle, and every pass in the book. He’s been playing PRO ball since he was 16, and knows how to lead a team. That’s what you want out of a PG. You want the ability to find the open man (and know he’ll be open before he even is), get him the ball. He also rebounds the ball very well for a PG.
His line in the gold medal game was as a 17 year old. Not bad, right? Against one of the greatest NBA point guards of all time.
He’s got an excellent feel for the game and frankly, has an advantage over his American counterparts coming from a European system that has allowed him to play full time since he was 14. This is a whole nother arguement, but the hypocrisy of our NBA/NCAA monopoly is now doing a disservice to our American players and giving true talents like Rubio a leg up.
I don’t speak for the powers that be in terms of AI. I’m not the establishment and I think he’s always left it all on the floor. But I can also tell you NBA teams don’t want an AI pg. They want a floor general. I don’t think that’s race, I think it’s the game. They want a Chris Paul, Derron Williams type. Rubio doesn’t yet have the jumper of either guy, but Rubio’s ahead of each as an 18 year old in the categories that matter for a pg, passing. He might be a flop, but then again, maybe Blake Griffen will be. It’s the draft, and potential comes into play. His upside is huge. If Flynn was 18 and put up Rubio’s #’s in Europe, he’d be getting the same love. The reason people feel Rubio is a top 3 pick is because he’s proven himself against the top level in the world (outside the NBA). He played ahead of 2 NBA point guards in that Gold medal game (Navarro and Calderon). I don’t think the Spainish coach was trying to hype up the next great white hope in the final, I think he thought he was their best pg.
Brandon Jennings is going to go in the top 20 for the same reason. He’s stats and pt are average, but scouts know that he’s been playing with men, while all the American guys have been playing with boys.
I understand the frustration with the system, but Ricky Rubio is not the system. I love this site and usually just read comments, but here, I think you’re letting your frustration with the machine get in the way of doing research and being objective. But that’s just my opinion.
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:17 pm
I mean, I could list a thousand reasons why Rubio is better than Flynn, if someone would put me through moderation…
Why did you randomly bring up Iverson, Nash and Stockton?
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Because when I judge someone who up to this point has been all hype to the AVERAGE fan who knows nothing about basketball, I take into account history.
The fact that Nash won two MVPs has everything to do with how Rubio is perceived here.
AGAIN, I didn’t say he sucked, I just want to know why he is better. There’s this consensus and I’m not at all cool with the psychology of it. That’s all.
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Nash’s defensively liabilities are constantly criticized. Of course they weren’t when Nash was being handed MVPs during the NBAs more ‘confused’ days, but was anyone mentioning how bad of a defender Iverson was when he was winning the MVP and taking his team to the finals? Of course not. When you’re on top, no one looks at your flaws. Well, unless you’re Kobe.
I’m a bit confused about the Stockton mention though. I mean, I get Nash is the worst defensive MVP winner in the history of the NBA, but why are we mentioning 5x All-Defensive second team, all-time steal leader Stockton of his defensive deficiencies? Is it cause he’s white?
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:33 pm
I’m not judging the Spanish league GAM. There is one Manu Ginobli, one Drazen, one Schmidt. Is he going to be as good as any of these?
WHY?
How many years is he gonna get to ultimately shine? Is a level of scrutiny gonna be thrown his way if he sucks?
Is it all about fans in the seats?
Is he better than Jason Williams?
Why is Flynn getting ished on?
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Jukai this has a lot to with race. No one will say it publicly.
Will either of you come out and publicly state race has nothing to do with Rubio hype?
I’m not against White athletes. That’s absurd. If you are a bad man, I wanna see you play. It’s just the hype. They are doing the athlete, the fans and more importantly the youth a disservice.
Stockton was a defensive liability no matter what you hear. KJ and GP used to eat him alive on the regular.
Speaking of those two, how much MVP consideration did they receive?
Nash’s stats never compared to the great seasons they both put up.
There is a strong case to be made that Nash and Dirk received their awards simply because they are White. Straight up. Way too much Crew Pop going on back then coming off the Olympics.
Are you seriously comparing Iverson’s career to that of Nash? Really?
If Rubio comes into the league and wrecks shop I will be the first to say I was wrong.
I wanna see great, not average because that’s what they are making him out to be already.
Did Kukoc ever become great? Wasn’t the hype the same?
I ask these questions for the discussion. I have many others in mind.
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:39 pm
…. oooooooooooookayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy…….. wow…
So, uhm, do you want me to tell you why Rubio is gonna be a better player than Flynn, or does it really matter?
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Knock yourself out but I’d take Flynn’s heart any day. Put him around talent and watch him work.
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Rubio is a great defensive point guard,the best in the draft.He has great court vision and passing ability,far superior to that of Jonny Flynn.I have seen him play a lot and I have confidence he will hold up in the NBA.Also,people aren’t expecting him to be great,people aren’t even expecting Griffin to be great,keep in mind that this is a fairly weak draft.I just don’t understand asking the question ‘will his defensive defeciencies be scrutinzed?’ about a player whose defense play is one of the attractions of his game.
I have a feeling it isn’t a basketball discussion you want though.
BTW,Rubio isn’t being over hyped.For every,as you put it ‘ball hanger’ there’s an equally voiciferous detractor.Thabeet,now he’s being overhyped.
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Mizzo,
We Jukai and I just listed several reasons for the hype and you haven’t countered one of them, just listed Stockton, Nash, and told us he’s white.
You haven’t said a thing about the fact that Rubio’s been leading a pro team since 16 against much better competition than the NCAA’s. I mean, if you want to have a conversation about this, then shouldn’t you reply with something like, “well, I think the NCAA’s are better.” Or, “I don’t think playing over Navarro and Calderon is a big deal cause they’re overreated white dudes, or not that good?”
Homegrown in this instance = played against lesser competition. I get the impression you think Ricky played a bunch of slow white dudes in Europe, and that’s just completely false. Ricky got his steals and assists against brothers quicker and better than ANYONE Flynn played against.
If your point is that he’s getting pub because he’s white, then I am sure he is, and you’ve got a point. But the NBA brass, and Doug Collins and Gottlieb are hyping him because they know the world game. Collins got family that played in Europe (I saw him at a game in Holland once) and Gottlieb also played overseas. They know that 7 times out of 10, Ricky was ballin against a PG who either 1) played some in the league or 2) just missed out cause he was too small or couldn’t shoot well enough.
Again, you want reasons? I think we both gave them to you. The ACB and Euroleague or easily bettter competition in terms of talent than anything in the Big East.
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Oh, and Kukoc came from a completely different era. One where there was a limit on US players in Europe and one where America HOUSED everyone at the Olympics. Things done changed. Countries like Spain are GOOD at hoops.
The bottom line is Rubios been playing in AAA while Flynn’s been in A ball.
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:56 pm
This really isn’t a basketball discussion to me. It isn’t. I admit that.
GAM you say all this but where are the superstars this league has given to the NBA? List them.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:00 pm
As far as Jukai saying Rubio isn’t expected to be great, I’d say that in most drafts if you are taken so high, you better put up.
Bargnani was a number one pick? Where’s the Kwame Brown scrutiny?
Damn right I’m all over the place because I’m making a point.
More Black NBA writers, more objectivity.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Rubio,in this ACB and in International ball has come up against far better opposition than anyone in the draft.Think about it,in an average college season,barring the tourney,teams will only play around 4-5 teams with NBA talent(or even college studs) and often play plenty of bottomfeeders who won’t even go pro.In Spain Rubio has come up against exclusively college studs(I particularly remember him destroying Dee Brown in one game),European players who have been in the NBA(Raul Lopez et al) and European players who will be going to the NBA or have been drafted.Also the European game is much more physical than its exponents in the NBA demonstrate.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:06 pm
An Co Co…yes he was injured but in a GOLD MEDAL game, there are no excuses.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Well, first off, put Flynn around talent and he may disappear. The first big issue is that the ball has ALWAYS been in Flynn’s hands during his tenure in Syracuse. That was what Syracuse’s offense required Flynn to do, dominate the ball, so I wont classify him as a ball hog… but in the NBA, that will NOT cut it, especially right off the bat. He’s going to have to rapidly readjust his game to play away from the ball a lot…
ESPECIALLY since he’s not a true point guard yet. There’s a lot of questions on whether he can ever be a true point guard. I think one day he’ll be a great floor leader, but he’ll always be a scorer, not a distributor. Is there a point guard in the NBA who is more scoring-oriented but dominates the ball? Westbrooke, I guess. OJ Mayo too, but he’s turning his game into a more 2-guard mold.
And with all the crap that Rubio gets with his jumper (a white guy with no jumper can never survive the NBA unless your David Lee or Tom Chambers), Flynn’s jumper is pretty pedestrian, and word from the draft combine reports that he didn’t do anything to disprove that belief. His midrange is alright, but if he’s going to be a point in the NBA, like Rubio’s, it has to improve. I’d say he should work on his three-pointer too, but that may be a waste considering his athleticism and ability to get to the basket.
Dude needs to cut the turnovers too. I know, being the sole focal point in Syracuse, he tried some crazy stuff doing one-on-five and lost the ball, but it’s not like he’s got free driving lanes in the NBA. If, as a rookie, he’s turning the ball over, he’s benched. It’s VERY important for him to control the ball if he wants playing time, and unfortunately, ranking 12th in turnovers per game in the entire NCAA is already a red flag.
He’s also got some defensive issues. Not that he’s a bad one-on-one defender, he’s actually pretty good, he’s fast, scrappy, and he really tries…. but he sometimes strays way too far away from his man, focuses on the ball instead of his defender (sometimes I just see him losing focus period when the dude he’s defending doesnt’ have the ball) and for a guy who takes so much damage driving to the basket, he’s sort of wimpy around screens. This has to improve.
There. That’s a lot against him. And I made it all the way here without mentiong that he’s barely over 6 feet WITH SHOES ON and will have more of his shots swatted than JJ Reddick, not to mention any tall point guard can just shoot over him.
Rubio, on the other hand, only suffers from the shooting touch. He’s a true point guard, a role which is HIGHLY needed in the NBA, he does NOT suffer from defensive liabilities (I mean, he did grab the DPOY of the ACB, but I’m sure that’s more race bias), he played less minutes and had less turnovers and more assists than Johnny boy, and biggest of all, he’s at least four inches taller and is working everyday to put on muscle to last the grind of the NBA. If Flynn puts on any more weight, he’d look like a Golem.
So, your turn.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Rubio SHATTERED his wrist and had to have massive surgery on it and was rehabbing for months but that’s no excuse because it was a GOLD MEDAL GAME?
Whooooooooooooooooooooooo boy.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:11 pm
The NBA will MURDER the world if we continue to put our best players in a position to be a TEAM (not just throwing a team together) 99 out of 100.
What has the world won when we put our best out there?
How is that so hard to fathom?
I would have stayed home too if there was any risks. My family is more important.
USA Basketball lost in Athens because our best players stayed home and didn’t practice much together. Arrogance maybe? Yeah, I’m with that.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Mizzo:Are you honestly saying that Bargnani hasn’t been scrutinized?Come off the stage with that one,he has been destroyed by fans and media in Toronto.Plus,he’s no Kwame Brown,last year he showed sparks of being a good player.Kwame’s a bust in any language.
Your point of more black NBA writers=more objectivity is correct.But this has nothing to do with Ricky Rubio and no point you have made convincing sense.
I get that the Ricky Rubio example is a platform to a bigger point,but an incorrect one,in my opinion.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Jukai I’m going by precedent with our media. Say LeBron or Kobe was hurt during the Finals, what ridiculous story lines would come from that?
This goes both ways.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Bargnani is not being scrutinized NATIONALLY. Don’t give me the “he plays in TO” thing either.
To say that Rubio is going to come into the league and hold his own is ridiculous.
It has everything to do with Rubio.
Let the kid come in and show what he’s got before all the slobbering. Said the same thing about LeBron and Kobe.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Mizzo:The LeBron and Kobe comparisons don’t hold water here.
Rubio wasn’t even a starter for that Spanish team.How can you compare the fifth option to LeBron and Kobe in terms of expectations?Come on,man.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
As far as making convincing sense. This is a debate. I want it all documented and as the site owner, why would I want to make one point and be done with it?
Running documentation here for all to see when it’s all said and done.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:19 pm
He’s not being scrutinized nationally(which he is) because he’s just not that big of a bust yet and he was drafted in a very weak draft.
How about the hype that Greg Oden received pre draft without ever really meriting it?He was pedestrian in college and was billed as the new Bill Russell.Did you have a problem with that?
You are completely overstating the hype Rubio is getting.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Mizzo: If Lebron or Kobe shattered their wrists, I’m pretttttttttty sure the media would let them off the bat. Hell, when Lebron lost game 4 to the Magic and he curled over with stomach cramps, everyone was saying “oh he must have been cramping up during overtime we should give him a break!!!!”
Do you know how many Lakers fans told me that Kobe only lost to the Celtics because he had nine fingers?
Man, you’re way off here.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Izzo they’ve been talking about this kid since he’s been 14 right? Same with Mayo and LeBron. So, what I take from that is that this kid is going to be an NBA monster based on the hype right. After all, the rest of the world is larger than the states and so should the talent pool be right?
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Mizzo: do you think the NCAA is better than the ACB or Euroleague? Be honest here.
Hey Izo, you remember when Wade dislocated his shoulder and the media freaking killed him for not finishing the game? Well, I don’t, but apparently they did!
Willis Reed’s game 7 in the 70s is highly overrated. What, he had like 4 points and ZERO rebounds? who cares about his leg, he should have STAYED IN THE GAME and finished it! Most overrated dude ever.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Damn right I have a problem with the Oden hype. I’m a Michigan fan.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Jukai quit playing with my emotions smokey. Sorry fellas if I’m not your cup of tea, but I question everything.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:24 pm
When is the last time you questioned the Lebron or OJ Mayo hype, dude?
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Because they both have panned out haven’t they? OJ showed his ass last year. He will be a star if he continues to work hard.
Questioning LeBron is laughable.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Mizzo,
Ok, so it’s rificulous to say that Rubio will do well, but not ridiculous to say Flynn will? Why? Because all we can judge them on is who they played against in college and Europe. And Europe is better. Easily. I’m saying this as someone who’s seen several Euroleague games and can list a gang of dudes that played at top American colleges and will tell you it’s better.
Answer my point, do you REALLY think that NCAA’s is better?
Cause if not, then THAT is why everyone is hyped on Rubio. He’s played in a Pro league and done well, while Flynn had a good season against average competition.
Bottom line. You can’t move the goal posts to suit your agenda. Have you ever watched a game in the first division of Italy, Spain or Germany? Israel? All are FILLED with former NCAA stars that are older, stronger and better than they were when they would have been playing against Flynn.
btw, the Spainish League has several players in the league over the past few years. Gasol bros, Fernandez, Navarro, Ginobli, Calderon, Garbosa, Reyes all pop right into my head and I’ll gladly go back and research more if you’d like.
NO ONE is comparing this kid to Kobe or Lebron, but they are hyping him BECAUSE THEY’VE SEEN HIM.
Can you honestly say you’ve watched him play, other than against the USA all-star team as a 17 yr. old with a broken wrist?!?!
If brandon jennings played like that against Jason Kidd as a 17 yr old, I don’t you’d be crying out for injustice.
You’ve got a valid point on black sportswriters, but unfortunately, you’re currently doing a disservice to the notion that they would bring more objectivity.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Wow Mizzo kats double teaming you on this.
As far as Rubio yes he is overhyped. And before anyone asks…..yes I have seen him play. I watch ACB and Euroleague games.
Now on whether he is will be a better NBA player then Flynn we don’t know. So folks need to stop claiming who is better.
You could argue Flynn game fits the NBA better. In that he is able to create his own shot, has better form and is able to finish at the hoop with contact.
That is something that Rubio isn’t able to do (and once again I have watched Rubio play).
Also yes the Euroleague, ACB, Greek Leagues and the rest have more talent then NCAA. Thats because the players are older and because they are actually paid. So of course you will have better talent.
But in saying that I would argue that NCAA style of play is closer to the NBA then in europe. As well as the athletes being better.
This could offset a player being in europe playing against older players…..but who knows.
Looking at Rubio in the ACB on the defensive side I believe that the only thing that will carry over is his ablility to jump passing lanes. He will not be able to grab and hold and bump players in the NBA. So yes he will be a defensive liability.
It is almost impossible to guard a PG in the NBA due to them often times being the fastest player on the court.
If rubio starts he will have to play with a SG who is able to guard PGs also. So at times rubio can switch over to guard the SG.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Mizzo:Would be people be expecting LeBron to win a chip’ while still suiting up for St.Vincent-St.Marys?That’s what you’re putting on Rubio here.There’s a reason he’s not the agreed on 1st pick,and it’s not Blake Griffin either.He’s just not a superstar,people have been talking about him since he was thirteen in the Freddy Adu way,not the LeBron way.
Do I expect him to be an all star?No
Do I expect him to turn into a top4 point in the Lig?Yes
Anyhoo,I gottsta split,hopefully someone will take you up on your challenge.It’s been fun.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Well, touche about the LeBron thing. But I questioned the OJ Mayo hype. I mean, OJ Mayo was the NEXT Lebron James. He was unstoppable in Middle School and everyone assumed he’d keep improving at a steady pace. He didn’t. His improvement slowed, specifically his court vision seemed to stop iimproving his freshmen year of High School. By the time he went into college, the hype was long died down and he wasn’t even in the same catagory as Beasley, Rose, and Gordon. Mayo, despite his surprising success in the NBA, did not live up to the hype.
And how about that Sebastian Telfair!
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Another thing Mizzo.
Isn’t amazing how every year the media hypes a upcoming white foreign player.
Yet I have never seen one upcoming black foreign player ever get hyped.
Unless he is a black foreign player that plays in college.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Also take into account that the media is trying to get a new young great white hope.
Rubio is spanish so they can target latins (even though I am not sure how latins here view the whole from spain angle).
He has the perfect white boy looks. And he can play basketball…..so of course he will be hyped.
Remember I told you last year how I didn’t even want to watch portland trail blazer games because the announcers would slob all on Rudy Fernandez after he made every single play. I mean good lord…..they were getting insane.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:34 pm
origin: how is a under six-foot, shoot first point guard more ready to be in the NBA than a 6′4 (some reports say he’s grown to 6′5) pass first point? That makes no sense.
Rubio finishes incredibly well with contact. It is wise to question his ability to finish considering the contact he will receive at the NBA level will be far more powerful than what he’s encountering now… but to say he doesn’t finish well is a vast understatement. That’s actually one thing the scouts like.
I do agree with your assessment about his defensive abilities. Although JKV did run more man-to-man than a lot of Euro teams, the greater emphasis on zone defense and jump shot puts Rubio’s man-to-man defensive greatness in question. However, the fact that you’re already calling him a liability is absurd. Why is he a liability? You have no evidence to say a DPOY of a Euroleague team would be a defensive liability. He may be a subpar one-on-one defender and a fantastic passing-lane disrupter, when it all is said and done, but saying he’s a liability already is haterade in my books.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Origin:Ever hear of Saer Sene?Or Alex Ajinca?Or Nicolas Batum or Serge Ibaka.
All drafted on hype alone.
Now I’m really out.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Oh and even last year I would say at one point during the seaon Rudy was the most hyped rookie in the league.
Oh and Gam as far as Xenophobia please them euros got that on lock.
Tell them to stop putting quotas on how many foreign players they can have on their teams.
Sounds like a “make sure we don’t have too many of them black american players doing that play ground ghetto ball, unless its one of our white home grown ones”.
Oh and Brandon Jennings was in a tough situation. Ain’t no black american straight from highschool gonna start and get made PT on a top level euro club. No matter how good he is.
Also don’t forget Roma already had a PG and Jennings was forced to play 2 guard.
Plus his coach didn’t want to play him and was fired in the middle of the season.
So in my mind considering what jenning’s did. He did well for the situation he was in.
Last let me end this myth that european ball is more physical then the NBA.
Outside of the paint yes….it is more physical. But inside the paint I would argue the NBA is more physical.
I would also argue off the ball during the playoffs the NBA is just as physical outside the paint (with countless moving picks like europe and folks grabbing off of screens).
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Izzo is correct. I remember Nicolas Batum getting so much freaking hype, the next Tony Parker and everything. If it wasn’t for his heart condition, he woulda been ridiculously hyped.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Izzo I have heard of them all.
They have never been hypes as much as their white counterparts who were drafted as high.
Nor were terms like Basketball IQ and fundamentals were used when describing them.
But terms like instincts and athlete were used all the time.
Try again izzo.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Origin: Jennings failed. I’m not saying it was Jennings fault, but if the dude had went to college, he may be going second instead of Thabeet and Rubio. Now if he doesn’t get fourth, he’s not going till 6-9.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Origin: Man, Batum had great “vision and basketball feel” from every scout. Do you really follow Euro hoops?
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Ummm jukai he will be a liability because he won’t be able to hold and grab players like he was in the ACB.
Nor will the paint be packed like in europe.
A longer 3 point line means he is out on an island.
And last it is almost impossible to guard a PG in the NBA with the no hand check rule. As I said in my post.
And once again I still believe that Rubio will have trouble finishing with contact in the league. But that fine there aren’t too many pgs that can in this league.
As to Flynn I am refering to his attributes translating to the NBA game.
You do realize that the hand checking rule has opened it up for fast scoring pgs don’t you.
I guess you missed aaron brooks destroying the Blazers and the lakers in the playoffs.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
When you say top 4, that’s over who? Chauncey? Andre Miller? Rondo? DWill? Who?
Because of the hype, he’s expected to be a monster.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Origin:That’s mainly because their white counterparts were the better players because European ball is mainly comprised of white players.It’s about numbers.
You accusing racism on the European clubs,in fact couldn’t be any more wrong and is also a bit insulting to anyone’s intelligence.Those rules are in place to encourage kids(black or white) to play the game.If kids see their own country’s main leagues filled with Americans(black and white) there’s little incentive to play the game.It’s real problem we had over here(Ireland) and basketball’s popularity really went downhill.
Also,what’s with the tone,man?
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:50 pm
GAM I’m proving a point by playing the other side bruh. You know just as I do about the writings of some of our peers going into the draft. Finally figured out who you are. Thanks for playing your card?
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Mizzo:Top four in his prime.That’s a few years away.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Yeap I do follow Euro ball.
I am not refering to just scouts, I am talking media.
All the little dumb websites like Draftnet and the rest.
Please don’t deny that black players whether foreign or american are usually touted only for instincts and athletic ability.
And no Jennings wasn’t a failure. Who is to say that he would have dominated NCAA.
You can’t make the assumption that a player who doesn’t dominate Europe would dominate the NCAA. Just like you can’t say that a player who dominated europe would dominate the NBA or vice versa.
Jennings went the avenue where he could get paid for his services.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Origin: Aaron Brooks destroyed the Blazers and Lakers because he was obliterating Blake and Fisher. Rubio has much quicker lateral motion and better hands than either of them.
Just because Rubio can’t hand check a player, doesn’t mean he will be a defensive liability. That makes no sense. When they banned hand checking in basketball, did every perimeter defender suddenly suck? No. The great defenders stayed great defenders.
Also, pulling jerseys is done all the time in the NBA. It’s rarely ever called. C’mon bro, I know you know that.
Mizzo: I believe Rubio will probably be more valuable than Andre Miller. Is that hyping him up too much? Does it mean anything if I say he wont be as good as Calderon and Nash and other white people as well as he wont be good as Billups and Rondo and other black people? He’ll be better than Sun Yue.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Izzo the tone is because we read the crap most NBA writers put out. Read a game recap, it’s all the same story?
Negativity sells. That’s why this entire model needs to be trashed. It’s all corporate because most pubs and networks are complicit with the league.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Izzo you say its not I say its racism.
The white fans don’t want to pay hard earned money to see a bunch of black american players….IMO.
But hey call it what you want.
Xenophobia at its finest.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Jukai pass that bruh. The world needs more chill…
He will not be as good as Andre Miller. Sorry. You are diminishing what Miller has done for some very sorry ass teams.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:54 pm
The European game and the NCAA are two different things.Stats mean much less in the former.
Jennings most certainly didn’t fail.I thought he did pretty well the times I seen him.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Oh and the lurkers our there, pull up a chair. Add something substantive so this can begin to be something objective.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Origins: I guarentee Jennings would have dominated the NCAAs. It’s not even funny. Lawson was running circles around these cats in the NCAA. If you don’t think Jennings is more agile and a better scorer than Lawson, we shouldn’t he having this conversation.
Especially on Arizona with Budinger and Hill to toss it too, man, it would have been good.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Origin:That’s absolutely ridiculous.You do realise that these players are the attraction and attendances have fallen hugely because of the rules over here.People love watching the American players.Not so much native players.
You’re being ridiculous and illogical.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Mizzo: I’m glad you can read the future and PREDICT Rubio will not be as good as Andre Miller. You’re as bad as the people overhyping Rubio, you do know that, right?
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Jukai you are saying that Miller isn’t a good pg. Put him around talent and we would have been able to see just how good he is. I happen to have seem 80% of his home games the past two seasons. Miller is really good. He’s just the Reticent Alchemist…
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Mizzo:The tone here really diminishes the discussion though.
It’s not a debate when it’s an interrogation.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:01 pm
IMO Rubio won’t be able to guard those dudes.
He doesn’t have the quickness to stay in front of them.
But hey Farmer coulnd’t stay in front of brooks also.
As far as his hands that reaching and poking. He will be left in his tracks trying to do that.
Look his passing and playing the passing lanes will transition fine into the NBA. But the other aspects he will really have to work on.
Especially his lack of shooting and playing the passing lanes.
Don’t worry he is a marketing dream…looks, ability to play ball.
He will get drafted and put in a perfect situation it is his job to lose.
Oh and whoever said that Rubio isn’t going to Memphis because of how they treated the other spainish stars is crazy.
Dude doesn’t want to go there because he has to pay back that fat buyout to his team.
He needs to go where he can get the endorsement deals.
Also Mizzo you know this dude is refusing to do any workouts.
Yi didn’t even do this and he had a communist country and a billion folks behind him….LOL!!!
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Izzo actually the ton was started by you and Gam.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
It’s what we go through here every day. It’s something we care about more than most. I ain’t apologizing for that. Is it as big as what’s going on in Iran currently, hell no, but the legend cannot become fact until it is written bruh.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Apology Izzo I meant to say Jukai not you.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Mizzo I could care less about the tone.
It happens every year.
Whether Rubio was an american White or a foreigner.
Whether he played in the NBA, NFL or MLB.
Its like this every year. If it wasn’t him it would be someone else.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Izzo you do realize that in Europe teams are saying that their attendance has risen.
Euroleague is stating that they are growing.
Maybe its your country. But to say that what I stated isn’t true is sad.
Look how many of the countries in europe treat the black soccer players and formula 1 racers.
Banana throwing, black painted faces…..the greeks, germans and spanish fans are known to act ignorant.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Quote:
Look his passing and playing the passing lanes will transition fine into the NBA. But the other aspects he will really have to work on.
Especially his lack of shooting and playing the passing lanes.
———————————————————-
Need some expresso, Origin?
Rubio will not be getting burned by every quick point guard in the NBA. Rubio’s lateral quickness is FAR better than his actual sprint. A lot of his steals COME from cutting off defenders trying to run around him and making them lose the ball. As a guy who “watches a lot of Euro hoops” (sure), you should already know this.
Also, since Navarro and Gasol pretty much came out and said they were treated like crap in Memphis, there may be a little bit more to what I’m saying than you believe. Oh, but I’m sure that’s just a lie put out by the white media to make Rubio’s decision not to go to Memphis more acceptable.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Anyway,this has become pointless.I tried to debate.I thought I made some valid points.
Got met with some hostility.Anyway,I disagree.People have differing opinions.Who’da thunk it?
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Origin:The ignorant majority don’t represent everyone.
Yes it is my country where attendances have gone down.
I was right in saying you were wrong,you were and are wrong to assume entire fanbases are racist.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Izzo: This is much more my type of forum where I can be snarky and actively match all their points. You’re a bit too understanding and ready to concede for this debate.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Oh and Izzo its not stats thats different between the euro game and NCAA.
I think thats selling the NCAA as nothing more then chuckers.
In the Euro game the teams are deeper. So the coach is able to play deeper in their bench.
Where as in the NCAA most teams aren’t that deep. Also in the NCAA many teams play a faster up tempo game because they have better athletes.
Now the ACB and Italian league play an uptempo game. But the other leagues play a more slow it down game.
Add to the fact the the NCAA is a more dribble drive game. And Europe is a more set it up pass, cut, open shooter game.
Plus in america we use set lineups most of the time. In europe the line ups can change game to game depending of the match up.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Origin: You’re not the brightest crayon in the box, bro. Assists in Europe are much harder to get than assists in the NCAA. Less dribbles allowed, less time has to expire, etc. etc.
That is a big factor when talking about Rubio, who lead the league in assists.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Wow, too much to respond too…I stepped away for too long.
Origin,
I would take issue with one point. The idea that the fans in Europe don’t want to watch black players is patently absurd. In fact, if they had it their way, they’d watch 5 black americans. I’ve spent a good amount of time watching games in Germany, Holland, Italy, Belgium, Greece and Spain, and know the black guys on those teams. THEY’RE GODS!
I mean, on a lighter note, you think American girls like black athletes? They love anything American/American hip-hop and they eat it all up. Ask some Amricans playing abroad, they’ll complain about the food, the tv, the culture, etc. etc, but they won’t complain about the lack of love for black guys. Seriously, I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but you don’t know what you’re talking about here. You can’t impose your own inferences on a society you haven’t experienced.
NOW, before you call me naive, European sports culture on a whole is MUCH more xenophobic than American and I’ve seen some of the most abhorrent behavior in my life at Soccer matches. Bananas thrown, monkey chants etc. And this isn’t just at small time eastern european games, this is at Real Madrid (Spain has an awful sense of what is racist, because, they’re culture is still quite racist in parts). But it’s known that basketball is a black sport, and it’s sort of counterintuitive to be a Euro hoop fan and a virulent racist. I don’t doubt that there’s fans who hold some racists views, but the idea that the quota rule is racist is pantently false. It’s similiar to what England is proposing for the Premier League in soccer because of their national teams struggles. There’s a line of thinking that suggests if you only bring in foreignors, it kills your youth.
@Mizzo,
Um, I do have ties to the game, and again I love this site and your perspective because it’s one that needs to be heard from more often, but I really doubt I’m who you think I am. But I’ll gladly ride any imposter love (no hate please):)
Keep up the good work man….
Oh, and fellas, stay away from the ad hominem attacks (we’re all guilty). It kills the discourse when we call people “not the brightest crayon, etc.”
peace.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Wow Jukai you summed up the entire site. Good job. There will be plenty of people who wholeheartedly disagree.
I ain’t madatcha though.
What about Darko? How was Detroit affected because Larry Brown made a dumbass move.
Shawn Bradley. The Candy Man. There are busts of every race, but what will you all say if Rubio is a bust?
Like Cube said, they’ll be a new…
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Jukai
I meant his shooting and finishing at the rim.
Oh and I could care what Gasol and Navaro said.
If Memphis was NYC, Miami, LA………it wouldn’t matter how many players from spain they treated badly. Rubio would go there in a heart beat.
This is about getting the endorsements to pay back JKV.
All though the word is out that they lowered the buyout.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Well Mizzo I am out.
Glad you brought this up.
I still say that Rubio will end up in Sac, NYC, GS.
Its all about the marketing…….this is Yi all over again. Except Rubio is a far better player then Yi.
Now a team could call his bluff and draft him. But I don’t think the league or Rubio will let that happen.
The thing is JKV could sell his rights to a bigger club in Europe if he tries to not go to the team that drafted him.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Mizzo: Well, the difference between Darko and Rubio is that Darko was drafted PURELY on potential. He was not NBA ready, everyone knew that, but they figured his skills would keep improving. Obviously, they didn’t improve one bit. Rubio, on the other hand, already has plenty of NBA ready skills, so he’s already a better pick than Darko. Will he live up to his hype? I have my doubts, but I also believe he has the full potential to do so.
Origin: Easy for you to say. If all your teammates told you they were treated like crap and to avoid a certain team, you may want to avoid that team. Rubio has said he doesn’t want to play for OKC but is still going to meet with the GM and have a private workout. However, Rubio is avoiding Memphis like a WILDFIRE. There must be something more to that, don’t you think?
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Anyway, this is straying from the original purpose.
The question was, explain why Rubio is getting all this hype.
I’ve explained it a billion times. I’ve gotten a lot of sh*tty counter arguments (it doesn’t MATTER if he shattered his hand and couldn’t bend his wrist on his shooting arm, it was a gold medal round dude!!!). I’ve also explained beyond a doubt why Flynn has a bigger chance at flopping than Rubio.
I will answer any direct questions, but I’m done with elaborations on the topic. If you refuse to believe something, why even ask it?
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Not comparing any of the pgs to Carmelo but damn that was an obvious pick for the D, no matter who they had at the position.
Thank you Origin. If you all don’t understand this has a lot to do with more than Rubio’s talent you are sadly mistaken.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Obviously Jukai the wrist thing was tongue in cheek. It was more a slam, no pun intended, of the media at large.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Yeah, the media is evil and loves Nash and hates Iverson and all that jazz.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:35 pm
So Steve Nash deserved TWO MVP awards in a league that Kobe Bryant still occupies?
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:42 pm
As far as Darko, why can’t it be that he just sucked? Why the excuses? Kwame Brown never worked on his game. I’m not going to be an apologist just because he’s Black. Again, absurd.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Mizzo, of course Nash doesn’t deserve two MVPs. He deserves one, mostly. Kobe deserves Nash’s second one. Then again, Chris Paul deserves Kobe’s first.
I just think it has less to do with race than you claim. I guarentee Dirk didn’t get it because of race. White people hate Dirk as much as black people.
And Darko DID suck. I’m not sure why you’re saying he didn’t.
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:55 pm
You brought up some lame ass excuses about potential. Nothing warranted drafting him over cats who are HOF bound.
LeBron shouldn’t have won MVP this year. Obviously Kobe should have won it, but when two foreigners ring off three straight, red flags go up.
There was actually a time where pundits were proclaiming Nash the best player in the league and possibly the best PG EVER. Don’t front.
Steve Nash deserved no MVP trophies. Not a damn one. If he won one, Mike Bibby should lay claim. After all, did Dallas defeat the Kings before Webber was injured in the playoffs?
Do give me the regular season ish either. Like TSF reader Miranda says all the time, the goal posts are always pushed back.
Where were you or anyone else when all the Nash swinging was going on? Were you for or against? Why is everyone jumping off the bandwagon now?
SLAM Magazine why the hell is Nash rated over Tiny Archibald, Mo Cheeks, Connie Hawkins, Kevin Johnson…hell even Norm Nixon?
I guess he brought the “excitement” back huh? What did he win to warrant such a legacy? Again, nothing against Nash the person, just the slobber.
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:10 pm
HOF bound? Who is hall of fame bound? Griffin isn’t getting into the hall of fame with his one dimensional game, Thabeet sucks. You’re INSANE.
Lebron had a better statistical season than Kobe on a worse team with a better record with more of an impact on the NBA and KOBE deserved the MVP? Is Lebron too white for you?
No one ever said Nash was the best point guard ever. You dreamed that up.
Mike Bibby at his height wasn’t half as good as Nash. I guess you can half like Mike Bibby.
Phoenix has been my favorite team since KJ and Barkley so I was swinging on it. Excuse me for loving my team.
Nash should be rated over Kevin Johnson and Mo Cheeks. Not over Archibald. Hawkins career was… interesting. I could see it. Nash should not be over King, Miller, The Pistol, Dumars, Wade, Paul, Walton, and a lot of other people. Nash is not top 50 material.
But your haterade is just immense. Nash was a broken nose, a mob controlled game, and a David Stern mass suspension (even though Duncan got off the bench in the same game, and Rondo got off the bench in game six against the Hawks the next year and nothing happened) from winning a championship himself. Unfortuantely, life sucks, and now Nash looks like a loser. It’s a pity, it truly is. But you’re just insane with your critisism bro. A lot of it just sounds like irrational hate.
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Darko’s draft class and tell me one reason why Nash is a better pg than Mo Cheeks or Kevin Johnson. At least they did go to the Finals.
You can drink all the cool aid you want to bruh, but we don’t do that here. We tell it like it is. Ain’t no hate going on. For who, for what? I care about the game’s history to let some of this BS go down without speaking my peace [sic].
How many good years did Steve Nash have? Seriously, I’m asking.
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Dude you have no idea. Take your ass in the locker rooms of the NBA and hear some of the dumb ass questions some of these writers ask or stuff they say.
Nash won because of the groundswell.
I’m speaking from experience, not from the couch (not that fans can’t have a logical opinion). I heard this stuff on the daily when Nash was on top of the L. Didn’t dream ish up. Trust, it ain’t just me.
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Ohhhh for Darko. I wasn’t justifying the draft by Joe. It was downright retarded. Who says “man, I’d love to draft this Carmello kid, but we got Tayshun and all, so….”
Detroit coulda been a downright dynasty with Carmello. Look how well him and Billups work out together. Darko was a disaster of a pick.
In fairness though, no one figured Bosh and Wade would be as good as they are right now. Especially Wade. That came out of left field.
Steve Nash had four good years, pretty much. I’d say that his worth in Dallas would be much greater had the offense run through him and not Dirk (Nelson woudl have it that generally Nash would dominate the ball the first half and then mid-third, to the fourth, Dirk would sort of take over) and if he knew how to better prevent himself injury.
That being said, KJ only had four good years himself. The difference? In those four good years, KJ was on an awful team that didn’t have much success. In the playoffs. KJ’s usually great shooting percentages would plummet because people would play off him and block his passing lanes and he had no midrange or outside game: he’s actually probably the best PG who never had any shot what-so-ever, and I should give him props for that, but that don’t make him better than Nash.
Once Barkley and Ainge came to Phoenix and Thunder Dan began developing into his own, KJ began getting injured and had trouble adjusting to dominating the ball less… he couldn’t spot up shoot and I was a little shocked that he wasn’t a better off-the-ball cutter with his speed.
I was a big Phoenix fan, so I was always a bit disapointed in KJ in the playoffs. He had some huge games, but he also had some vastly horrid ones.
I mean, he made three all-star games. Total. There was a reason for that. It’s not like he was cheated out. People tend to look back and see his stats and say “WOW THIS GUY MUSTA BEEN GOOD” but he overdominated the ball, was shut down in the playoffs and wasn’t there when the team was actually good. I’d take Nash, a better passer, shooter, and floor leader anyday.
The Cheeks thing is a joke.
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Dude, don’t act like you’re a somebody, alright? Every dude in the L talks trash. Too bad, in that three year span, no one could prove it to Nash’s face.
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:34 pm
And once again, don’t get me wrong: Nash isn’t a top-50 player. He’s not a top-10 point guard.
But all of a sudden, KJ’s name keeps popping up. It’s like, a bunch of people relooked him and decided he was a way better player than previously thought. There was reason why he didn’t get the all-nba teams and the all-star games. Lots of reasons.
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Compare Nash and KJ’s stats and get back to me. History is now shaped by a whole bunch of swinging just because the Suns ran everybody out of the gym when teams came into Phoenix on a road swing.
As far as me acting like I’m somebody, there is a huge difference from the way the game is reported on than the production on the tube bruh. That’s all I’m saying in that regard. Get in there one day and maybe you’ll understand.
Mo Cheeks is a better pg than Steve Nash. Damn right. I’ll go to my grave saying that and yeah I’m a Sixers fan. Cheeks would have destroyed Nash on both ends. Trust. Just imagine if Cheeks could occupy the lane and throw lobs all day to Barkley, Doc and Moses. How many assist titles would he have?
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:46 pm
And what do you mean no one could prove it to Nash’s face. Dude’s jumper was like water but mainly because teams didn’t want Stat to bang everything.
In fact, the opposing pg usually had career games against Nash. Something has to be said for that.
It was like Nash the defensive liability disappeared into thin air. His game is a MVP aberration. When folks look back on that period they are gonna be like WTF.
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Stats aren’t everything. Take a look at KJ’s stats when the team became successful. They drop tremendous, don’t they? Because KJ only had stats when he overly dominated the ball and took all the shots. That’s not Nash’s MO. Nash was to help the team, not himself. A team that won 60+ wins out of nowhere. A lot of people forget that.
Mo Cheeks COULD throw lobs to Doc, Moses and Barkley all day. That wasn’t HIS MO either. He was more of a Billups type dude, controlling the tempo, dividing who gets the ball, scoring when he had too, great defensive presense. I’d still take Nash in a HEART beat.
and how does it even make sense that Nash only had a great jumper because stat wouldn’t bang inside? That makes no sense at all.
Man up, bro, use some logic.
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Nash would get punked back in the day. He would not be allowed in the lane. You can take Nash if you want to, but I’d rather go with durability with a championship pedigree.
So who is a better pg? Kidd or Nash. Why didn’t Kidd get an MVP or two? Finals twice?
So it makes no sense that teams would play off Nash in attempts to neutralize Stat? Really? Nash is a baller. I love his game. Actually saw his first game on ESPN as it happened. Love his attitude but that doesn’t mean he should have been a two time MVP because his team won 60 games with a power forward who couldn’t be stopped. Sorry it just doesn’t. He received too much credit for their success. There’s really no way. Earthquake to the game to put fans in the seats. Just like the dress code. How are you gonna tell a grown man how to dress. It’s funny to me…the same writers who criticize the dress code show up in the locker room with jeans and kicks. Some tattered even. How is that?
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Mizzo says
“the same writers who criticize the dress code show up in the locker room with jeans and kicks. Some tattered even. How is that?”
Thsnk you Mizzo, thank you. I am so glad that someone pointed this out finally. I have been saying this same thing for years.
Yet folks still swear none of this was racial.
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Mizzo: I could easily say that KJ would be hard pressed to average 15 points in today’s league with legal zone defenses and increased charging rules (that dude would run into everyone). It’s easy for one to predict an altered future, but you have absolutely no proof of anything.
And stop trying to tell me you like Steve Nash. I hate when people do that. “I mean, I love Steve Nash, I just know he sucks.” Man up and admit you don’t like him.
Origin: Did you know that Reagan and Bush Sr also put crack cocain in the ghetto to keep them down?
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Anyway, it’s been fun guys but I gotta jet. Can’t say I’ll be coming back here, the ideology is just too vastly different and you guys blatantly make up some pretty insane stuff. It was a fun time waster though.
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:26 pm
You went too far with the Bush/Reagan stuff but again, I ain’t madatcha.
Take a good look at Ali’s image up top bruh and think of old school Batman during action scenes simultaneously. Be Peace.
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:36 pm
What up, Mizzo,
I’ve been lurking for a while. Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about Ricky Rubio or Johnny Flynn, so I couldn’t participate in the discussion earlier. But I had to interject when Jukai said that you hate when people say “I hate when do that. ‘I mean, I love Steve Nash, I just know he sucks.’ ” Man up and admit you don’t like him.’ ”
I had to interject because Jukai and I had been having this same discussion over on the SLAM website about Steve Nash. Why would I hate Steve Nash? Because he’s White? That’s a stupid reason to hate somebody. If I hated Nash, I wouldn’t hide it. People hate Kobe Bryant, and they don’t hide it. They take pride in it. And they hate him FOR NO REASON. So I don’t feel like I need to explain way any hate I may have for Steve Nash. I can say “I hate Steve Nash. Deal with it.” But I don’t. I would LOVE to sit down with Steve Nash and talk with him about Fyodor Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov. That’s my favorite book, and a couple of years ago, I read in a magazine that Nash was reading it. I thought: “Man, that’s cool. I would like to see what Nash thought of it.” And I also heard that Nash arranges pick-up soccer games, and I play soccer. I would love to play soccer with Steve Nash. That would be awesome. You think I HATE the guy?
But when we get involved with these kinds of discussions, I just think it’s a matter of what’s right and what’s not. I know it’s just basketball, and honestly, to me it’s just a hobby, but I don’t think it’s right to obscure the legacies of people like Nate Archibald and glorify Steve Nash. And for what? For averaging 15 and 11? Nate averaged 34 and 11. It’s just a matter of fairness. That’s why I get excited. That’s it. I think Nash, or at least the glimpse I get of his public persona, is very positive.
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Great points all around. Dude has no clue because he’s a Suns fan. Uh..I think? I’ve had great conversations with Nash on occasion. He’s definitely positive in all respects.
When history’s soul lays in the balance, I gotta defend it for the sons of my grand kids.
Steve Nash is not and never has been a better pg than Mo Cheeks, or Chauncey, or Tiny…never Kidd.
June 22nd, 2009 at 9:05 pm
As always Tariq well said.
Mizzo I have to say as always you aren’t afraid to state what many are afraid to say.
As far as the comments about KJ…..well of course it was hard for him to make the all star game. Magic and Stockton were in the west.
But with todays rules that dude would be unguardable.
No hand checking and with his speed. Is his prime KJ was the fastest player in the league.
Also in terms of his jumper KJ did have a 18 foot jumper. Its not like he was ben wallace out there.
If a 37 year old Jason kidd can avg. 11 pts a game in this watered down league. I know a prime KJ can avg 20.
June 22nd, 2009 at 9:12 pm
My bad O, wordpress is moderating an inordinate amount of comments lately.
June 22nd, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Yeah O it was funny because KJ stayed away from the three. That 93 squad was unstoppable. They were a KJ lob to Barkley away from taking the Bulls to seven.
Which brings up another question: Why don’t more teams throw the lob in the closing seconds? Seems like teams aren’t looking for it. I was screaming for KJ to throw the aforementioned oop, but instead Ho Grant smacked it back in his face.
June 22nd, 2009 at 9:35 pm
I look at it like this…the NBA is a different proving ground unlike anything I will ever know because I didn’t make it on that level, however I believe that Michael is saying don’t give this guy the crown. Too many writers are out here repeating what everyone else is saying…there is nothing wrong with writing a different story, or providing a different view from what everyone else is doing.
June 22nd, 2009 at 10:01 pm
True Mizzo.
Another thing people fail to realize that in that series jordan ate Thunder Dan up so bad that the suns let KJ guard jordan after game 2.
Yeah I don’t know why folks don’t trow that oop. Same as teams don’t take the delay of game when a team is trying to run a last second shot at the end of the game….they just do things differently now then they did 15 years ago.
And on that last play with KJ (Grant blocking that shot), I think KJ thought he didn’t have enough time to throw that oop.
June 22nd, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Another thing after game 2 they put KJ on MJ to stop all that dribble penetration.
But this was prime MJ……he just put KJ in the post and rained jumpers down doing that patent MJ fadway off the block.
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:14 am
Damn, 114 comments. I agree with Mizzo’s initial post. Yeah, Rubio might bring it….but then again, so might have Darko Milicic (I still say he ain’t a bust-he didn’t get much of a chance in Detroit-not to hold that against him, but he has some post moves and he plays good D and he ain’t scared to mix it up…yeah, not #2 overall pick, but not total bust), so might have I dunno, any number of guys. To me there’s no way Memphis should use a #2 pick on an 18 year old kid whose play, while solid, may well not transition comparably to the US. He doesn’t have the speed or the strength to be a lead guard immediately. He might make good court decisions and to me he’s comparable to a guy like Sergio Rodriguez for the T’blazers and maybe, for his good court decisions, like JJ Barea……but a #2 pick? When Mike Conley is already in Memphis and showed what he can do? It’s just bad strategy on the part of Memphis, if nothing else.
June 23rd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I had to avoid the conversation with “Jukai” beause he was an elitist whiteboy asshole, and Mizzo you know I don’t have any patience with know-it-alls like that; but you and Origin did well to keep your cool with him.
Anyway, Rubio’s game is no doubt steady for a young pg - even flashy on ocassion - and I’m glad he’s coming to the league. His frail body and lack of a jumper are of little concern to me because with so many kids in the league today, he’ll fit right in with all the other still-developing players who are getting big minutes nonetheless (indeed, there are relatively few “men” left playing today, unlike, say, 10-15 years ago when Rubio’s undeveloped body and lack of polish would have been an issue).
On the other hand, the kid does look a little slow to me. That slow-motion behind the back dribble move the media outlets keep showing in highlights, while it froze the puny euro-defender in his tracks, likely won’t fly in the NBA, nor will that flat-footed underhanded floater of a lay-up they often show; and the “lateral movement” that “Jukai” kept raving about, while good enough for a few steals in the passing lanes, won’t be enough to keep Rubio’s skinny, lanky ass in front of the NBA’s mighty mice like Aaron Brooks, Tony Parker, et. al. And of course he’s much too weak to guard even a newcomer at 2-guard like Courtney Lee, so Rubes will be a defensive liability, for sure.
DPOY in Europe, while impressive for an 18-yr. old anywhere, doesn’t really translate well to the NBA game - it’s a totally different type of beast over here and anybody with half a brain knows that, right? I mean, anybody who wants to crticize someone for being ignorant about Euroleague ball, then turns right around and expresses even higher levels of ignorance about how the game is played so differently in the NBA is not to be taken seriously, right?
Even so, like I said earlier, I’m excited about Rubes coming into the league. The “pure” point versus the “scoring” point has evolved into an interesting technical and (moreso) cultural dynamic and turning point in the world of hoop, and I’m interested to see how Rubes fits in. More than that, however, I like his skill set already, and I’d like to see how he develops as a player, plain and simple.
So you see, I have no trouble admiting he can play, but let’s face it, the reason why he’s being so heavily marketed has nothing to do with his skills, rather he’s heavily marketed because he’s a fresh-faced, floppy topped white boy. Sure as hell don’t take 115 comments to figure that out! It’s the same reason why tats and drug use suddenly became “cool,” because a blue-eyed spikey-haired white boy they call “Birdman” was rockin it. It’s the same reason why NCAA megastar white boys Adam Morrison DNP-CD and JJ Redick (who did nothing but assist Kobe in earning the Finals MVP, but whom, nonethelss, the sportswriters can’t stop witing about why he isn’t playing and when will he play and maybe if they whine and hug his nuts a lil tighter then somebody will play him and…) merited any type of media coverage AT ALL during the NBA Finals. It’s the same reason why Wally Sczerbiak (sp) is just wrapping up a multiyear multimillion dollar contract even though he has never been much more than a glorified shooter. It’s the same reason why Luke Walton is still owed money for a multiyear, multimillion dollar contract despite being nothing more than a glorified scrub. Ditto Mark Madsen. Ditto Brian Scalabrine. Ditto Matt Bonner. Ditto Tyler Hansbrough (just wait…). I could go on. Only the megatalents who play on the teams with these scrubby white boys - Kobe, Kong, KG, Duncan - can make them look like players. Otherwise, they don’t even deserve to be in the league, and any Black player with a similar skill level either (a) would not be in the league at all, or (b) would be in the league, but working on a 10-day contract instead of the tens of millions these white boys get. The scrubby whiteboys get the tes of millions so that NBA “fans” like Bill Simmons have somebody on the court they can “relat to.” (Hey, don’t get mad at me, see for yourself what Simmons said about the whiteboy scrub-turned-ESPN.com writer who was too scrubby even for any NBA GM to give him the whiteboy pass and throw any real money at him. Now how bad do you have to be as a elevated whiteboy not to get that guaranteed whiteboy money n a league that desparately needs you? Anyway, I think his name was Paul Something-or-other. Chek espn.com, I think his bullshit essays are still being posted…)
Now is Rubes in the same skill-class as these white boy scrubs? No, right now I don’t think so. But we’ll have to wait and see. Of course, if he isn’t, that only works to Rubes’ advantage because if the sportswriters (as they are the main culprits) and to a lesser extent the ad agencies and fans can find another whiteboy in the mold of a Nash, Dirk, or Pau, ie a whieboy who can actually run with the “niggers,” then that’s an obvious win-win for the league and it’s “image” problem…
End of story.
June 23rd, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Sorry about the typos y’all, but you get the point…
June 23rd, 2009 at 3:09 pm
LastPoet:
Yeah, first off, I don’t think Jukai was being elitist. He may be a bit too aggressive, sure, but I wouldn’t say he’s an “elitist whiteboy asshole”.
Also, I have to say, I’m not saying I agree or I disagree with what you’re saying, but let me just rephrase your argument for a second so I can grasp it. Essentially, your saying that:
Scrubs or semi-scrubs like Brian Scalabrinie, Matt Bonner and Luke Walton get paid mainly because they’re White. A Black player with a similar skill set would get cast aside. This is all because the NBA has a master plan to make itself more accessible to the mainstream; it doesn’t want it’s players to be all Black. A little vanilla never hurt anyone.
I don’t know if this is what you’re saying, but this is what I understood.
Now, I’m not naive. I think Steve Nash won those MVPs in part because of his race. I mean, listen, if Stephon Marbury was running the point on those Suns teams and he averaged 15 and 11 like Nash did, TRUST me he would not have won MVP. OK, I get that.
But I don’t think that teams have “White quotas”. Come on. Isn’t that taking it A BIT too far? I mean, haven’t teams overpaid for scrubs who were also Black?
I mean come on, how much did Cleveland pay for Larry Hughes??
Or how about Darius Miles?
How about Jerome freaking James? That was a good one. Jerome James. An absolute SCRUB. He signed a 30 million dollar contract and proceeded to average 3 ppg and 2 rpg. I mean, at least a guy like Luke Walton CONTRIBUTES. Sure, he’s overpaid, but he isn’t JEROME JAMES. Come on, now. I defy you to find me a whiteboy who doesn’t deserve his money as much as Jerome James doesn’t deserve that 30 million dollar contract. It isn’t necessarily racially motivated. It’s stupid GMs making stupid decisions.
June 23rd, 2009 at 3:11 pm
And in this league, EVERYONE is overpaid. Just look at Rashard Lewis. That dude is good, but he isn’t 118 million good.
June 23rd, 2009 at 3:18 pm
By the way, I’m serious, maybe you forgot how BAD Jerome James was. And he was paid THIRTY MILLION DOLLARS by an NBA franchise.
June 23rd, 2009 at 4:16 pm
I ask again, if this league is so good, what top level NBA talent has it produced?
June 23rd, 2009 at 6:00 pm
I’m late to the party and don’t really have any comments on Rubio since I have not really seen him play.
But I just have to say there is no way in hell that Steve Nash should have won 2 let alone 1 MVP trophy. It was widely held that the Sun’s were a terrible defensive team. Everyone made that fact known one way or another. Nash was the face of the team and the epitome of it’s style of play i.e he played absolutely no defense. How in the hell does he win not one but two MVP’s? And during this time Kobe not only scored 81pts (I honestly think when time passes and people are able to be more objective about 24, they will realize how amazing this was. And if I am not mistaken I believe his shooting percentage was over 60%) and led Laker team with Smush and Kwame to the playoffs.
C’mon man!
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:16 pm
To answer your question John and I apologize for your comment being in moderation even though it was the first comment (My bad), but I’ve seen RR play only on TV. I’ve yet to see him play in person. Does that prohibit me from being an expert on his game? Yes of course, but following him the last couple years or so, I’ve seen enough tape of him to say he will not come into the league and be this special forces player by any means as some have said. The hype is the only reason why I’m calling race out here. Seems like America would rather put its stock in a foreign player than one of our own (Serena in Tennis as opposed to Sharapova is a great example).
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:14 pm
I have waited for just the right moment to get involved but i’ll say this: No one knows what Ricky Rubio is. I happen to think he’ll be a colossal bust.
And I agree with LastPoet. i think there are white quotas. in fact i’ll go so far as to say that 26 of the 30 NBA owners would be all right with their teams if the starting five was all-white. (Lakers, Cavs, Hornets, Magic the only exceptions).
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Okori: Why are those the exceptions?
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Kobe, LeBron, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard.
June 23rd, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Mizzo:
What do you think? Do you think the Lakers give Luke Walton 30 mil because he’s White? Then how do you explain Jerome James getting 30 mil? Do NBA teams also have a “fat quota”?
June 23rd, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Also, wouldn’t the Heat be an exception? Or is whiteness at a premium in Miami?
June 23rd, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Let me tell you something, Okori, or whoever else… is there injustice in the world? Sure. I’m a Muslim Arab. You think I don’t get treated a certain way in certain places? I wrote a novel about racial discrimination. I know it exists. I’m not oblivious to it. I don’t think we live in Candyland and we all love each other and everything is peachy. I’m not 12 years old.
However, when we adopt a paranoid outlook, when we adopt a victim mentality, we are defeating ourselves.
June 23rd, 2009 at 9:53 pm
I’ll let whoever made the point speak for themselves. Heading to bed, haven’t seen any sleep since last night. Be Peace…
June 23rd, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Yeah, i doubt they will. I mean, I raised a valid point: If NBA teams pay a guy like Luke Walton 30 mil only because he’s White, then how do you explain the fact that they pay a guy like Jerome James, who is MUCH WORSE than Luke Walton, 30 mil? I mean, seriously, anybody wanna argue that Jerome James is better than Luke Walton? And yet nobody begrudges him his 30 mil? No, that’s cool. Because he’s Black. There’s no foul play there. That’s just the Knicks being the Knicks. That’s just mismanagement. But Luke Walton getting 30 mil? That’s a conspiracy. That’s NBA teams having “White quotas”.
OK, fine. Back up your argument with facts. Convince me. Set me straight. Maybe I can’t see the big picture. But no, all of a sudden everyone is silent.
June 23rd, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Some people just like to play the victim.
June 24th, 2009 at 12:46 am
Been on and off this particular thread because I have not seen Ricky Rubio played, therefore didn’t have anything to contribute. As for Luke Walton, he may be a nice kid or bi-polar psychopath, what I believe though, is he got $30 million for being the son of Bill Walton. Unfortunately besides his looks, the apple did fall far from the tree.
Now if we want to compare apples to Apples, how is Luke Walton’s entry into the NBA, much different from Patrick Ewing Jr’s brief coffee break? Break it down for me!
Now Jerome James story was one of actual talent without the drive. But If you check our resident Knicksologist - the esteem MODI- he can enlighten you more than I on this.
$30 million for a talented underachiever or $30 million for a less talented underachiever to me is not good economics eitherway. However, Jerome James in Seattle had GM’s salivating come free agency time. Luke Walton. is…. Bill Walton’s son.
Now Tariq, I know the Arabs been catching hell before 911 and have been catching more mad wreck ever since. But your experience is not mine. So to accuse the regular African up in here of playing the victim card, is similar to the young rape victim being accused of deserving it, because she was drinking with the rapist.
All we did was clean up the homeless rapist, fed him and gave him a shower and clean clothe. And we’ve been held captive in our basement and tortured and abuse ever since.
Non Africans and their knee-grow sycophants like to throw out this career victim hood accusation and only catch hell from those who not only know but FEEL it.
So just don’t go there. It makes for a less heated dialogue.
June 24th, 2009 at 1:40 am
Because to be honest the Heat play in Miami, and other than the Dolphins, that city is a sporting wasteland Tariq. they had trouble selling out play off games. but let’s be clear: you’re talking to someone who’s bi-racial and a social worker. so if you want to slap injustice on the table to quote Howard Saint: “I have more guns than you do.”
June 24th, 2009 at 2:28 am
With all due respect to the commenters and Mizzo, it seems as though the overwhelming majority of the banter concerning Ricky Rubio’s NBA prospects have been carried on at the level of biology (somewhat intentionally). Success in the NBA, however, is not determined principally by biology. At the upper echelons, every elite player has some genes at work. I am a firm believer that the best of the best have more WANT TO. Not every 6′3″, 220 pound receiver is willing to go over the middle — but Marvin Harrison did it. Not every player is willing to attack the rim in the 4th quarter and take the contact and risk injury. Nor are they all composed enough to knock ‘em down at the stripe (T-Mac…63% in ‘08).
I may certainly have missed those few posts about WANT TO instead of biology. From here though, even the quotes about league quality and NCAA depletion are fundamentally about biology: percentage of Black-US born players in the league; age of players, etc. Please accept my humble apologies if someone did go there.
Mizzo’s point — it seems to me — is that the HYPE hinges on Rubio’s biology and its implications OFF the COURT. That seems logical, even it is hasn’t been proven directly. There seems to be wide agreement on the point. So, the HYPE is really not about WANT TO. Hence, the names Jonny Flynn and Nasheem Thabeet seem to fit because they demonstrated WANT TO in MSG for the world to see in that 6OT thriller. What does that all mean? It may not mean anything at all. It may very well be that the league which produced players like Ewing, Allen, Iverson, Mullin, and so many others is really just a shabby minor league Negro extortion outpost. Perhaps what’s missing more than a subjective discussion of Rubio’s quintessential rubio-ness (or blondeness or “whiteness”) or height or length or vision or youth or experience is a measured assessment of his WANT TO.
We’ve seen skinny wreck shot in the NBA. Exhibit A: Reggie Miller. We’ve seen slow wreck shop in the NBA. Exhibit A: Larry Bird. We’ve seen marvelously talented players flame out or fail to realize their potential. We’ve seen all manner of player blow up in this game because that’s the fundamental nature of basketball. You don’t have to be Black or tall or fast or strong or young or blond or Spanish. You have to show and prove. I believe that if he wants to be a great player, he very likely will be just that — but pitfalls abound.
It seems to me that everyone in the NBA drafts upside. Most of the biological weaknesses which have been referenced here are fixed easily enough. I would not be surprised to see Rubio end up on the Los Angeles Lakers or some other elite contender. There is no point in allowing him to go to Memphis or Oklahoma City for more than a year or 2. It is, after all, probably going to go down just as the Last Poet has said. There are enough marginally talented players in the league that his shortcomings will not be as detrimental as might have been the case years ago.
—————————————————————————————–
Simply, I believe there is more to be gained from a discussion about the uses to which Rubio’s biology will be put, rather than his native abilities. The answer to the questions don’t lie in a discussion of the “visible subject.” They lie in a discussion of the implicit (maybe even invisible) subject — the 2,000 lb elephant in the War Room.
June 24th, 2009 at 2:56 am
Great points temple.
Especially this…..”Simply, I believe there is more to be gained from a discussion about the uses to which Rubio’s biology will be put, rather than his native abilities.”
So true.
As far as Lastpoets comments Tariq, you may think that they are a victim mentality. But remember not too long ago there was a quota that the NBA openly had with white players. This quota wasn’t hidden from players, coaches or GMs.
Bob love even mentioned how he was cut on an NBA team due to the quota of white players being too low (I want to say it had to be 6 on each team then).
Now realize even to this day people believe that certain teams continue to have quotas on how many white starters had to be on the team. Whether it be Utah or Chicago.
Maybe its not so much victim mentality that brotha Poet is speaking from………perhaps its a little thing called knowing history.
June 24th, 2009 at 2:59 am
Also Poet thanks for bringing up Paul whatever his name is on ESPN.
Its a joke he even has a blog.
And don’t even let me get into that TNT piece on Birdman’s tats….lord.
June 24th, 2009 at 3:07 am
Origin:
You are too kind. As for folks seeking to understand where LP is coming from, it’s usually a waste of time. He is very clear, but it is very, very difficult for someone to understand that this land of milk and honey is also the home of our Auschwitz and Treblinka — and it is even more difficult for someone to understand that their gleeful ignorance of the Devil and his myriad Details adds gas to the flame.
“Burn Hollywood burn, I smell a riot going on…First their guilty, now they’re gone.”
Only 2 groups in the US have been subject to the intergenerational seizure and appropriation of land and labor. Everyone else is either a spectator, a co-conspirator or a beneficiary (relatively speaking)…It’s just the nature of the beast.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:05 am
OK, so when Jerome James gets paid 30 mil, and then averages 2 ppg and 3 apg, it’s a case of him not fulfilling his potential. But when some whiteboy gets paid (let’s not use Bill Walton’s son as an example), it’s a case of racism.
Now, is there a difference in perception between white and black? Sure. Someone brought up Birdman. The guy was out of the L for 2 years for drug abuse, and yet his “Birdman” persona is portrayed as something cool for the kids, while someone like Allen Iverson was seen as a threatening figure. I get that.
Now, if, I don’t know, the Bucks, have a 12th spot to fill on their roster, and they have to choose between a Black player and a White player… and they decide: “Yeah, let’s give the white scrub 700,000 to sit on the bench.” I’m not saying that that happens, but at least I can buy that.
But to suggest that an NBA team goes out and just gives random scrubs MULTI-YEAR, MULTI-MILLION-DOLLAR contracts, in the process absolutely screwing their salary cap, JUST BECAUSE THEY’RE WHITE? That just doesn’t make sense to me. And what do you base this on, if not on sheer paranoia?
I brought up Jerome James for a reason. To show that from time to time NBA teams make stupid decisions (quite frequently actually) and overpay for players who don’t deserve it, regardless of race.
And I’m not saying that BLACK people have a victim mentality. I’m saying that people of color who are in a certain situation use The Other as a crutch. It happens in the Arab world as well. A lot of people see the US as “The Devil”. I think there a lot of problems with the way the US conducts its foreign policy, but to just dub it “The Devil” and to view everything American as evil and as part of a conspiracy is counter-productive. And whoever said “we got more guns than you” has never had bombs rain down on his house from an F-15, but whatever, it isn’t a competition.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:15 am
And I’m sure PLENTY of Black people would read this bullshit and go: “Yeeeeeeah riiiiiiight.”
June 24th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
[...] regardless of how his career ends up. What about Evans and Holiday? Don’t they have size? The post was a segue into this interview, but you’ll have to wait until the last part for our chat on [...]
June 24th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
I believe it was mentioned up in here from a reliable NBA source that there was a quota, so quash that. To go further, most right thinking people won’t condemn regular folks for White Supremacy (a Coordinated system of oppression of people, mostly non Caucasian under the pretext of “white” superiority) Right thinking people point out the governments of America Inc.’s complicity in neo-colonialism and empire building on the backs of primarily first world people (I aint no mutha fucking third world).
The fact that a majority of Caucasian folks engage in the conditional mind altering madness called the right of white, where they practice Anti-African or even Arab hatred points to the collective psychosis of the majority. Even the knee-grows that shit on this blog.
White Supremacy is set up to give a series of gate keepers (a) Caucasian with wealth (b) Caucasian who are poor (c) Knee-grows who think that the system embraces them and every body else in between, who kick the fallen African, as part of the initiation into the “club”.
By kicking the fallen African when they are down, shows the devil that you’re not like the sub hue-man rabbles.
So if you support American Inc’s empire building through destruction of lives culture, you will reap the same rewards from a people rising up and pissed.
If you cannot over stand White Supremacy and the mental health issue around Anti-African feelings, then you will never over stand the intricate workings around the human fighters in the coliseum of modern Rome
June 24th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
sankofa:
What reliable NBA source?! I can log on to TSF under an assumed name and claim that a “reliable NBA source” told me that they eat babies in the Clippers’ locker room. Does that make it true?
As far as empire building, yes, I believe that a close reading of American history shows that there IS an American Empire, no doubt. And it isn’t just built on the oppression of what you term the “knee-grow”, either. Look at American intervention in the Philippines at the start of the twentieth century and read the history of “America Inc.” up until the Iraq War and you’ll see the same exact pattern. I’m not claiming otherwise. In fact, if you want to go further and look at parallels to the experience of what you term “America Inc”, I advise you to take a gander at how King Leopold of Belgium raped the Congo in the 19th century for ivory. And compare that with the war in Iraq these days.
This is the world we live in. I know this. But sometimes, because we see these terrible things, we also project. We project our previous experiences onto situations in which they do not apply. And that is a problem. And instead of LEARNING from our experience, we become hindered by it. It becomes a handicap. Everyone becomes out to get us. Everyone becomes our enemy. And the gap between Us and the Other widens.
Now, to me, it isn’t about getting initiated into the club. I don’t think that’s possible anyway. I don’t think it’s a case of “if you kick the African, we’ll let you in.” It isn’t about gaining favor or anything like that.
But to me, honestly, I don’t think you can really fulfill your potential as a human being if you don’t have the capacity to love. And I mean, if you don’t wish the best for every human being, no matter what color they happen to be. I think you should have love in your heart for the whitest whiteboy, and when I say that, I mean that in your heart of hearts, you sincerely wish Johnny Whiteboy happiness. I think that’s what Brother Malcolm X discovered towards the end of his life. And I think that’s sorely lacking among some of the members of this board. I think, some of the members of this board are blindly loyal to their race. And I think they resent it when a scrub like Luke Walton makes 30 million dollars, and construct an elaborate conspiracy to explain it. Because they’re bitter. Why does this fucking whiteboy make 30 million dollars? He doesn’t deserve it? And you know what? He DOESN’T deserve it. But why isn’t there such resentment when a guy like Jerome James gets 30 million dollars? Because what nobody will say is this: A lot of people on this board actually DO think Jerome James deserved that 30 million. Not because of his basketball skills, but simply BECAUSE HE’S BLACK. It’s A-OK for him to make 30 million dollars while averaging 3 ppg and 2rpg BECAUSE HE’S BLACK. Let the brother get his, as it were. Isn’t there something fundamentally wrong with that line of thinking?
June 24th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Some may think he deserved 30 based on the NBA pay scale Tariq. Has nothing to do with his race. Don’t paint us that way.
June 24th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
How so, Mizzo?
June 24th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Mizzo:
OF COURSE Jerome James shouldn’t be paid 30 million dollars. What does the NBA pay scale have to do with anything? He got paid the same way ALL scrubs get paid, whether they’re Black, White or purple: Scrub puts together a few nice games. GM gets excited and overvalues the talent of scrub. Scrub gets paid. I don’t see how it’s racially motivated. Temple3 put it nicely in another discussion we had: “GMs see an oasis, but really there’s just miles and miles of more sand.” And that’s the case with Jerome James as well as (to a lesser degree) Luke Walton and every other scrub you can think of.
June 24th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Tariq, my bad for entering into a discussion in which I know nothing of the context.
I’m not speaking for others but what I will say is despite there being a lack of empirical evidence on the subject, it would definitely behoove GM’s to have more White players on the roster based on demography.
June 24th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Mizzo:
While that certainly MAY be true, that desire wouldn’t drive them to give bad players multi-year, multi-million-dollar contracts just because they’re white. You think the Lakers aren’t kicking themselves for giving Luke Walton that 30 million contract? And Sasha Vujacic that 15 million dollar contract? I’m sure they wish they had the flexibility to sign both Lamar Odom and Trevor Ariza. But the reason they gave those dudes those contracts is the same reason they gave Andrew Bynum HIS 50+ contract (I’m sure they regret THAT; they could have locked him up for a lot less): You make decisions which seem to make sense when you make them, but which are bad in retrospect.
I refuse to believe that a team goes up to an absolute scrub and goes “Hey, fuck our salary cap, here’s 30 million dollars. We KNOW you can’t play, but we have demographics to worry about.”
June 24th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
By the way, just to make myself clear, I’m not saying Andrew Bynum is a scrub. I’m saying his contract is a bad one for the Lakers.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Shawn Bradley? Steve Stipanovic? They were no brainers. Especially Bradley in that draft.
Tariq this is kind of obvious. To say GMs don’t want great White hopes is absurd.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Mizzo:
Matt Bonner is a Great White Hope?
June 24th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Oh look, we have created enchantment with Tariq, who finds it necessary to expostulate on a stream of thought which is entirely of his own creation. Interesting.
“Rephrasing” my “argument” to suit his own conceptually limited purposes.(T’was never an argument, my son, as I could care less about entering into a “debate’ with you about how these ideas relate - either you see it or you don’t, I am not your teacher.) Fascinating.
Then spends the next twenty comments dueling with himself - and this is the very definition of a dark, unreconciled striving - over realities that he nonetheless refuses to see. All-knowing Tariq who asks questions of others and then answers them himself. Priceless!
Carry on, wayward son. Please do not allow the words I actually wrote stop you from making your point… But while doing so, please do not expect a reply from me in which I actually take you seriously…
Enuf
June 24th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Well, Last Poet,
A few points:
First off, you address me with a condescending air. That is not your right, but it does not irk me. If it suits you, use it.
Secondly, It is entirely possible that I have misunderstood your point, and am open to correction, even if you persist in your condescension. But it seems that my “rephrasing” of your “argument” has found favor with others.
Thirdly, you say that you are not my teacher, but I am not ashamed of taking wisdom even from the mouths of fools.
Fourthly, “All-knowing Tariq”: What I know is staggeringly outweighed by what I don’t know.
Fifthly, I do not refuse to see any realities. On the contrary, I am pleading with you to set me straight. Perhaps I AM wrong and YOU are right. But you are “above” this discussion. I am not to be taken seriously. Fine.
Run away, run away, little poet. Everyone is out to get you little poet. Beware of the boogey man, little poet. Hide, hide, hide. It’s scary out here in the sun.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Tariq shhhhhh he’s the wrong one brotha! LOL
June 24th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Don’t worry, Mizzo. He doesn’t take me seriously.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
“… But to me, honestly, I don’t think you can really fulfill your potential as a human being if you don’t have the capacity to love. And I mean, if you don’t wish the best for every human being, no matter what color they happen to be. I think you should have love in your heart for the whitest whiteboy, and when I say that, I mean that in your heart of hearts, you sincerely wish Johnny Whiteboy happiness. I think that’s what Brother Malcolm X discovered towards the end of his life. And I think that’s sorely lacking among some of the members of this board. I think, some of the members of this board are blindly loyal to their race. And I think they resent it when a scrub like Luke Walton makes 30 million dollars, and construct an elaborate conspiracy to explain it. Because they’re bitter…”
——————————————————-
First, I personally don’t use the term whiteboy, because I resent being called out of my name. Don’t paint me with that brush. Secondly, when Malik Shabazz made his transition to orthodoxy, many including me felt let down, because we believed if such a man could succumb to Arabized Islam then what hope is there? However, the love of TRUE Islam and the love you are talking about are two different things. I won’t extend love to anybody just because! It is not only erroneous but inciting for you to act like you don’t over stand what I said and proceed to deal in revisionist stories. You arrogance in accusing members of this board of blindly following ethnicity, shows how you project your own bias.
______________________________________________________
Why does this fucking whiteboy make 30 million dollars? He doesn’t deserve it? And you know what? He DOESN’T deserve it. But why isn’t there such resentment when a guy like Jerome James gets 30 million dollars? Because what nobody will say is this: A lot of people on this board actually DO think Jerome James deserved that 30 million. Not because of his basketball skills, but simply BECAUSE HE’S BLACK. It’s A-OK for him to make 30 million dollars while averaging 3 ppg and 2rpg BECAUSE HE’S BLACK. Let the brother get his, as it were. Isn’t there something fundamentally wrong with that line of thinking?
______________________________________________________
Mizzo, just expanded on my explanation of Jerome James to you. I thought I explained Luke Walton to you. You have two ears and two eyes, use them liberally, the ability to learn is based on the WILLINGNESS and ability to listen and comprehend. To go further on this path will incur the attacks you claim to see here. And speak for myself on this point.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Tariq you are smarter than this. No one here should have to explain every single example. Our thinking here is much deeper than simple ethnicity as sankofa just alluded to.
This site isn’t just about Blackness, it is about how Blackness is reflected on a larger society through decency.
Straight up like this. In my world there isn’t any middle ground, you are either with me or against me. Others here might be different, but I’ve come to the conclusion through mad mad experience in and out of the field.
You know racism when you see it and when a WHITE man is drafted high on hype and all of the sudden scrutiny lessens after he’s able to hide in the L after a few years then that shit is whack.
I don’t care who it is.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Living in Los Angeles I will say that on one hand Walton is a fantastic passer and knows the triangle. On the other hand, the guy makes truly bone headed decisions sometimes and is slow.
However, I can’t look at his signing in a vacuum separate from other decisions in the league that are clearly made based on race. If you take Nash’s 2(!) MVP’s, the dress code, Birdman’s ascension (this is a decision made by the NBA in conjunction with ESPN) and then look at why some players services are retained against all logic, then you start to see that yes this player was probably hired/hyped because he is white and why is that? Well, they will tell you it’s because white people are the main audience for this sport, spend the money to go to games and buy all the merch so that’s who they have to cater to, or maybe they are trying to appeal to as broad a demographic as possible. I don’t know if I quite agree with that
June 24th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
LastPoet is REALLY, REALLY smart. I like how he uses big words and an air of condescension to smash his opponents. I’d never dare tussel with that dude.
I wonder though, has he (or anyone round here) ever won an away game? Seems like the truly great ones can win on the road. I know, you get less calls, and the away crowd can be REALLY MEAN. But the truly magnificant ones (sorry, my thesaurus couldn’t come up with anything better) still overcame the odds and won on the road.
I’ve seen this rountine before man, but if your mind was as supreme as you clearly believe, I’d have seen you actually convince someone towards your point of view. Instead, you’re either too smart, or the other party is too white (oops, sorry Tariq, let’s say, not black enough) to understand you.
That’s a very clever defence mechanism, and I hope it keeps you happy. However, if this country and its sports culture are as toxic as you say, and if the point of this blog is to change that, then I would think engagement is the only way.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
GAM: I think you’re on to something.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:15 am
Mizzo: “You are either with me or against me”…you’re quoting Bush?!
June 25th, 2009 at 1:31 am
sankofa:
It’s unfortunate that you feel Malcolm X has let you down. I feel the opposite way: He has always been a hero of mine because I always felt that he hungered for truth. That was what he yearned for above all else. He was loyal to that above all else, above, yes, even his ethnicity. That’s the same way I feel about my ethnicity.
Which brings me to an important point: It’s wrong to say “Arabized” Islam. It’s just Islam. The Islam that was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad 1400 years ago. There is no “Arabized” Islam and “Europeanized” Islam and “Africanized” Islam. There is Islam as it was revealed to Muhammad. And in the Book that was revealed to him, the Qur’an, it says:
“O mankind! We created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted with all things.”
See, there is the criteria: The most honored is not the one who is from this country or that land, or the one who belongs to this ethnicity or that, but the one who is righteous. This is what Brother Malcolm grasped. And I love him.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:56 am
GAM we’ve done it both ways here. I try to engage readers with interviews and leave the forum for work week therapy for some.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:32 am
There is an Arabization of Islam. Islam by its stated goal is purely about uplifting the spirit and steps to attain that. Islam as is practiced has inculcated Arab culture on to those not born in the culture, which permiates every space imagined. From music, to dress, to the interaction between females and males.
This is the Arabization I speak off. And this is part of the reasons for the rise of wahabiism and the talaban. Because orthodoxy demands every one to follow a ritualistic path layed out not in the Hadith, but in the interpretation of the Hadith.
Does the Hadith needs interpretation? Many of those who claim to follow the Hadith, do not over stand the Qu’an when this is the final word.
Maybe I was not clear on brother Shabazz, but it took a while to come around to over standing him on this level. But Malik Shabazz did embrace Arab culture… and African culture, the latter of which many others have not embraced.
“…There is no “Arabized” Islam and “Europeanized” Islam and “Africanized” Islam…”
So true, the Sufis thought so on the highest level and see how that was met?
As Temple3 said in another post Right thought, Right speech, Right deed. Everything else is window dressing.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:03 am
GAM you never game me a definitive answer of who has come out of this league and wrecked shop in the NBA. I can think of numerous Big East players who have.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Mizzo:
I don’t really follow the Euroleague, but I believe Pau Gasol and Manu Ginobili played there.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:09 am
I knew that, but that’s only two players. Gasol’s brother makes three. Who else?
June 25th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Are you asking about guys who played in the SPANISH league or the EUROleague? If it’s like soccer (and I think it is), then each league plays against every other league. So teams from the Spanish league would play against teams from the German league.
So would Dirk Nowitzki qualify?
June 25th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Jose Calderon
June 25th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Rudy Fernandez
June 25th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Fabricio Oberto
June 25th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Andres Nocioni
June 25th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Luis Scola
June 25th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Carlos Delfino
June 25th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Tony Parker
June 25th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Boris Diaw
June 25th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Mickael Pietrus
June 25th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Hedo Turkoglu
June 25th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Mehmet Okur
June 25th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Peja Stojakovic
June 25th, 2009 at 11:48 am
That’s off the top of my head.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Andrei Kirilenko
June 25th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I mean there are a LOT of players who have made the jump from the Euroleague to the NBA.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
And some even decide to go back home like Juan Carlos Navarro. He had a pretty good season with Memphis but preferred to sign with Barcelona.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Tariq, you know me better than that. I asked about the Spanish League. Of course I know how many players from Europe jump into the league but damn, we still have the best players over here. It’s not as easy as it used to be, but we are still #1.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
From the Spanish league, as far as I know:
Jose Calderon, Fabricio Oberto, Andres Nocioni, Luis Scola, Rudy Fernandez, and Carlos Delfino. And Juan Carlos Navarro had a solid season with Memphis last year (I think he averaged something like 11 ppg and 3 apg off the bench) but he got a better offer from his old club, Barcelona, and decided to go back. There may be others, but those are the guys I can think of.
Oh and sankofa:
Just so you know– You and Mizzo never EXPLAINED the Jerome James thing. You claimed that every GM in the league was salivating over him…Yeah, I must have missed that. And then Mizzo said “Some may think he deserved 30 based on the NBA pay scale” but then apologized for entering the discussion without understaing the context. Just so you know.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
But like I said, Mizzo, I don’t watch European basketball. I don’t watch college ball. All I watch is the NBA.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Tariq: and not a 1 of those guys is a good NBA player. Not 1.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
I meant to say Navarro had a good season with Memphis two seasons ago, not last season.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Okori:
I think anyone who understands basketball would tell you that Luis Scola, for starters, is a good basketball player. He isn’t going to the Hall of Fame, but he’s a damn good basketball player, and there are a hell of a lot of teams who could use him.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
And I’m a Lakers fan…Give me Jose Calderon to run the point and I’d be VERY happy.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Not one good NBA player…GTFOH.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Scola is a monster because he gets in spaces and steals rebounds. I was really impressed with his rebounding tenacity and tried to get him to answer some questions, but he barely speaks English.
The thing is Tariq is that why would you take a chance on a player who might be steady over a cat like Tyreke Evans or Sam Young who might be all stars?
I think people are gonna be shocked when they look back on this draft and see players blow up in ways most should have seen but are overshadowed by the mass marketing of Ricky Rubio.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Here’s what I meant Tariq: If Luis Scola is the best player on your team you’re headed straight to the lottery.
And Mizz…. it might be time to learn Spanish man. Too many people speak Spanish for you not to know it.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Okori: There’s a difference between being a good player and a franchise player.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
i know. I categorize Scola as a decent player, a role player. he’s not good to me.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Mizzo:
I think unless you’re drafting a LeBron James or someone like that, a draft is always a gamble. How about Michael Olowokandi? Why in the world would you draft Michael Olowokandi over Paul Pierce? Why would you draft TWENTY guys, who are Black (Hilton Armstrong) and White (JJ Redick) over Rajon Rondo?
Or look at the 2005 Draft:
You could look at Chris Paul and Deron Williams dropping to 3 and 4 and Andrew Bogut going 1 and go “GREAT WHITE HYPE!”… But then how do you explain Marvin Williams going at 2, also ahead of CP3 and Deron?
To me, it’s always a gamble. Rubio is a gamble. And he’s NOT a consensus No. 2 pick. EVERYBODY has Thabeet ahead of him. And I was just watching Jay Bilas today and he has Rubio at FIVE, and he was saying “Listen, Rubio is NOT a sure thing. And they were saying that Rubio had zero points against Brandon Jennings in one game and that he’s turnover-prone and has no jumpshot and isn’t super-athletic.”
But I think the allure of Rubio (aside from being white) is that the guy has been a pro since the age of 14, and that has to count for something no matter what you think of the ACB + the footage of him with that crazy handle is pretty impressive.
Now I haven’t followed Rubio and in fact it seems to me that it would be a difficult transition to make for all the reasons that Jay Bilas mentioned (and Bilas is white, btw). But Bilas has been wrong before. Bilas thought Josh Smith was going to be a bust too. So really, who knows.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Okori:
Of COURSE he’s a role player. A GOOD role player.
Let me put it this way:
If Luis Scola were a free agent, and Danny Ferry called LeBron James and said:
“Listen, Bron, we’re trying to get Scola to sign a contract, but we’re facing stiff competition from other teams. So here’s what we need you to do: We need you to KISS SCOLA’S ASS. Do whatever it takes…take him to dinner, whatever…”
You know what would happen?
LeBron James would BEG Scola to become a Cav. And Scola would make a BIG difference.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
In most instances though Tariq most were shaking their heads after some of the picks you posted. The Marvin Williams, Olowokandi and Bogut picks were just crazy to me. It seems the NBA goes for this conventional wisdom thing that is just absurd.
As far as speaking Spanish Okori, I know some and whenever I’ve been to Mexico can get my way around pretty easily but when there’s a time limit in the locker room? No dice.
That needs to change though. I’ll learn it soon enough. Gotta get my Pepe Le Pew on as well.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Mizzo:
So can you accurately predict who will be a star and who will be a bust in this year’s draft?
Also, this year’s draft isn’t particularly strong.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Of course not bruh, but everyone and their Mom thought ATL should have picked Chris Paul or Deron Williamsl. If we can see it, then why can’t an organization’s brass?
June 25th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
remember, Mizz, mexican spanish is different from traditional spanish or dominican spanish…. and so on.
June 25th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Did you just call me Archie Bunker? lol
June 25th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Tariq
You’re right, taking you seriously is absolutely out of the question. After reading your reply today, it’s clear to me that I actually gave you TOO much credit. I was not patronizing you then, but I am now, because today I can see that you (and GAM) are dumber than I realized.
Listen, next time, if you don’t understand something, rather than drawing implications based on initial assumtions which were falsely construed (by you & you alone), how about taking the following novel approach to knowledge and edification: ASK for clarification. Or are you “too white,” - oh, excuse me, “not Black enough” to understand that?
Don’t worry, lil poet hasn’t run anywhere. Say something interesting, something meaningful, and I’ll give you an honest reply. Otherwise, back the *&!@ up cuz you’re sucking all the “air” out of my “condescension.” Jeez if that’s the best you can do, then just leave me alone. Please.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
little poet:
lol. i liked you more when you used big words. where has your affectation gone, wayward son?
call me names if you like. call me dumb. i won’t sink to that level.
i rephrased your argument PRECISELY for you to PROVIDE CLARIFICATION if it were needed. Instead, you preferred to hide like a blushing virgin in her quarters for 146 comments and then act all flustered and appalled when your precious point was misconstrued. well, little poet, i gave you a chance to clarify your point, but you WANT TO BE MISUNDERSTOOD. that’s how you define yourself, you little self-righteous versifier. And no, I’m not Black enough to “overstand” anything. but then again, pigmentation has nothing to do with cognitive skills.
run along, little poet. i’ll leave you alone now. what i say won’t interest you anyway. i’m not black enough for you.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
And by the way, little versifier,
you act like I deliberately mangled your argument to prove a point or something.
By that’s not the case. What I did was very normal: I rephrased your argument and said: “I don’t know if this is what your saying, but this is what I understood”. And I do this WHENEVER I engage with anybody so that the other party has the chance to say “Oh, no, that is NOT what I meant…THIS is what I meant.” But you did not say anything. WHY? Why didn’t you say: “No, Tariq, I’m afraid you misunderstood me. HERE is what I meant…”
No, you want to use “being misunderstood” as an excuse.
And then, my “rephrasing” of your argument found favor with people like Okori and Sanokfa! Imagine that! They AGREE with my mangled, misappropriated, misquoted, unfair version of your precious argument! Imagine that, my precious minute versifier! Imagine that!
And what is this precious argument that I mangled, versifier?
Get the fuck off of your high horse and have a seat, versifier. I’ll even let you write a haiku.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Tariq
You’re all over the place and your entries on this post as shown me how much you suffer from tunnel vision.
Jerome James, in basketball is a wanted (don’t laugh) commodity. A 7-footer who can walk and chew gum at the same time. The league loves people like that, as “you can’t teach height.” Even a grade school child knows that a 7 footer should be able to get a rebound or 5 and block at least a shot.
These are the types of players that can come off the bench and maintain, or protect a lead, or better still build your team around or complement the true engine (the star) of the team. A commodity like this can make or break a playoff bound team. James, from what was reported, acquainted himself well during Seattle’ playoff run, the year before the Knicks signed him.
James averaged 18 points, 12 rebounds and three blocks in 31.5 minutes a game vs. Sacramento. During the regular season, he averaged only 4.9 points, three rebounds and 1.39 blocks in 16.6 minutes a game. But many a GM’s remembered the play off and this was why many were salivating to grab him come free agency. During that play off game, James was getting out on the floor contesting shots, and offensively he is getting the ball in positions where he can score.
A quote from the locker room explains it to some one like yourself who was looking for some one of James’s skill set…”Maybe the rest of the world would say I’m playing above expectations,” James said. “But for the guys in our locker room, our coaching staff and this organization, I’m finally coming into my own.”
Isaiah was in abiding war for Jerome James plus he had James Dolan’s money. According to MODI @ Cosellout and SOMM about the trades and signings by James was NOT acquired through a trade. Everybody seemed to be engaging in revisionist his-story. Was James a bad signing? Yes, in retrospect.
The rest of the civilized world, following the Anti-Isaiah faction has used this as one of the more potent weapon against the ex-Knick GM. Luke Walton has not shown any reason to earn $30 million. Jerome James, IN HIND SIGHT is not worth $30 million. Ultimately, this is the climate mentioned by Mizzo.
One other thing. A part from Pau, Tony Parker and Boris Diow and maybe Calderon, everybody else on this roster are bench players. Diow is fast becoming irrelevant Hideo and Peja even with the skill set they possess are only starters on flawed teams in a watered down league.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
correction
“…Isaiah was in abiding war for Jerome James plus he had James Dolan’s money. According to MODI @ Cosellout and SOMM about the trades and signings by Isaiah, James was NOT acquired through a trade…”
June 25th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
sankofa:
I guess I suffer from tunnel vision from all the “overstanding” I attempt. By the way, a word of caution: before you “overstand”, always try to “undersit”, otherwise you might get cramps.
What you said about Jerome James fits my scrub formula. I said that Jerome James got paid the same way EVERY scrub gets paid, regardless of color: Scrub puts together a few good games; GM gets excited and overpays scrub. Scrub gets paid.
Jerome James played a few good games for Seattle during their playoff run in 2005. That’s why he got paid.
Similarly, when Luke Walton signed his contract, he had a career year. The season before signing that contract, he had career highs in field goal percentage, 3-point percentage, steals, blocks, rebounds, assists and points. Naturally, the Lakers were excited to tie down a player they thought was an important bench player. But after he signed the contract, Walton’s numbers went down.
Same thing: Scrub plays well for a few games. GM gets excited and overpays. Scrub gets paid.
What’s the difference?
P.S.
I don’t recall Mizzo mentioning a “climate”. He just said “Some people may think he deserved 30 because of the NBA pay scale” I said “How so, Mizzo?” He said: “My bad for entering into a discussion in which I know nothing of the context”. He didn’t mention any “climate”.
June 26th, 2009 at 12:01 am
“…By the way, a word of caution: before you “overstand”, always try to “undersit”, otherwise you might get cramps…”
What the fuck are you about? Really? Unlike you I don’t try to turn others statement around to hype myself. If that’s your masturbation incentive, ESPN can fulfil that for you. On one hand you accuse Last Poet of condescension and name calling then you next wallow in the same slop you throw out at others. When it comes down to it, bitches like you confirm my notion that given enough time, you will show your true color as an arrogant, self righteous mother fucker, as soon as TSF deviates from the national past time of straight jacking African athletes to questioning the socio-political reasons why they become a focus of disdain.
I predict that you will further slide into more condescension and arrogance, even though it will not be apparent to your self rightous ass!
June 26th, 2009 at 12:49 am
Shoo fly shoo.
June 26th, 2009 at 12:58 am
P.S.
ESPN has nice pictures.
June 26th, 2009 at 1:19 am
sankofa:
It’s funny how being wrong brings out ugliness and anger in people. It’s OK to say that I “suffer from tunnel vision”. That’s fine. But when I make fun of the word “overstand”, all of a sudden that makes me an arrogant, self-righteous bitch.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that your argument is weak. And as a way to avoid admitting that you’re fucking WRONG, you lash out and call me a bitch.
But yeah, whatever. As I said: Shoo.
June 26th, 2009 at 4:52 am
Tariq,
Here ya go….
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Overstand
Seriously, I don’t see anything in this thread worthy of calling people “bitch” “lil this” or whatever other pejoratives are being shouted about here. Is Ricky Rubio worth this? Hell, is what Ricky Rubio supposedly represents worth this type of discourse between people that I reckon are closer in terms of ideology than your average dual on Bill O’Reilly (because those folks even refrain from such name calling, but maybe that’s for the sensors).
I mean, I get it, it ain’t fair, but it’s not as if I (or even Tariq or Jukai) came round here and said that Oscar Grant was asking for it, or started making disparaging statements about black athletes (nevermind that you don’t even know my race, but I doubt that would matter).
My whole point above (with a bit of sarcasm) was that none of the posters in this thread wrote anything that consituted flaming, so why the hostility and anger? The fact that someone like Tariq is here, at least means that he’s interested in engaging different perspectives, which is apparently not something that many here welcome.
While the “national pastime of jacking African Athletes” may indeed be worth it, the overhype of Ricky Rubio or any white athlete is not worthy of speaking to another human being like that.
Maybe what some want is a place where a “heated” arguement is a debate over whether the white media is more unfair to AI or TO (I say AI by a mile btw), but I was under the impression that engagement with those of differing opinions can prove benefical to both parties. But I’ve lurked a great deal and found it rare that dissenters weren’t greeted with a big fat vitriol sandwich (tho many like DavidMac and another that escapes me did deserve it).
Mizzo, you’ve never come at me like that, so I don’t mean any disrespect. You’ve just disagreed real hard, which is cool.
I view TSF as a community that I usually like to eavesdrop on to gain some perspective, and when I disagree (one in a while), try and add mine. If that F-s up the community, my bad. I know I’m a visitor here and that it sucks to have a nice little online enclave invaded by the unwelcome. I get it, and I’ll be sure not to let the door hit me on the way out.
Anyway, stay cool….
Looks like our boy and Johny Flynn are gonna get to show and prove up real close to each other:)
Though I suspect one might be traded by the weekend.
June 26th, 2009 at 10:05 am
GAM:
LOL. I lke the 4th definition of the word “overstand” the best. In any case, I know the word EXISTS. I think Nas used it in a song once. But he used it ONCE. LOL.
By the way, GAM, I didn’t just come here for the Rubio post. I’ve been coming around TSF for a while. And I enjoy the fact that TSF is anti-establishment and all that.
But I think you hit it on the head with the TO/AI example. And I agree, AI by a mile.
You know what usually happens on TSF? Usually, people like LastPoet and sanofka and I have the SAME OPINION. We usually agree! That’s why we’ve never had problems before! On the contrary, if you go back to old posts, you’ll find that I’ve never had problems with ANYONE on this website. Hell, go back to THIS SAME POST, and read what I said about Nash not deserving the MVPs, someone said “AS ALWAYS Tariq, well said.” I’m not bringing this up to toot my own horn. I’m just saying that I’m not DavidMac. I’m actually looking for interesting conversation.
BUT, I deviated from the straight path, apparently: I defended WHITE athletes. LastPoet hypothesized that White scrubs are handed multi-year, multi-million-dollar contracts JUST BECAUSE THEY’RE WHITE. I challenged this hypothesis, and all of a sudden I’m part of the problem. I should have just accepted his theory at face value without questioning it. Now I’m a self-righteous, arrogant, dumb bitch who doesn’t overstand.
June 26th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
But I’ve already wasted WAY too much time on these misoverstood victims. I’m out.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:20 am
[...] could have been. Straight up. I hope he develops in every sense of the world because he is special. Remember this conversation? Please. Dig it on SLAM by clicking on Brandon’s pic. Send to Facebook Sphere: Related [...]
November 3rd, 2009 at 2:42 pm
GAM says
“Brandon Jennings would have been a star in College, but he can barely get time for ROMA. Which check it man, is NOT A EUROLEAGUE level team.”
LOL, damn you made yourself look like a clown with that one.
November 3rd, 2009 at 5:21 pm
They believed the hype bruh. Jennings is rockin’ outta this world. He is the real deal, not some fabricated wunderkind from a league that has yet to produce a HOF player.
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:07 pm
I come here looking for something on Week 8 in the NFL and two of my favorite guys are still working the Rubio angle. What gives?
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:10 pm
Got bigger things to tackle bruh. NFL this week. Gotta prioritize. Learned a valuable lesson.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:29 pm
I quess GAM and the rest of the fools hating on Brandon Jennings are eating crow now, Ricky Rubio was scared to play in the league and have his liablities exposed for all to see. Jennings game is perfect for the NBA while Rubio’s may be limited.
December 11th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
[...] Why is Brandon Jennings so good when most of media hung him out to dry out of love for Ricky Rubio? [...]