I hope you know that I think Favre is GROSSLY OVERRATED.

Surely you also know that I’ve argued for Tarvaris Jackson at length. In fact, after watching his playoff game vs. Philly on replay, I came away very impressed. He was also the last guy to smoke Arizona in the desert.

We totally agree on the perception vs. reality thing — at least as it relates to the media, etc.

I think from a strategy perspective, though, Pennington is the equivalent of a scatter-armed running QB because he cannot stretch the field. The Dolphins had absolutely NO CHANCE in that game because the Ravens simply swallowed up the run and dared Pennington to beat Ed Reed. He couldn’t — and never could. The Vikings lost because TJ didn’t have much more than Bernard Berrian on the field — and they couldn’t stretch the field. He has a huge arm and get rocket the ball down the field — and he can run. But, when Minnesota is at it’s best, he won’t have to — unless it suits him. When they smoked AZ, he threw 4 tds on 11 passes and only ran 3 times. That’s how you do it. Run when the defense gives it to you — and make them pay. Don’t run because you can because you’re robbing your team of the opportunity to HAMMER the defense with your RB’s and you’re robbing your team of the opportunity to score in the passing game.

TJ’s best career game vs. Arizona demonstrates this point better than anything I’ve seen.

I generally agree to what you have said…

The scrambler or classic drop back passer have an equal shot of being a Super Bowl winner, but its not always about the QB…. it’s important don’t get me wrong, but Super Bowl winning teams generally are the most balanced teams (offense, defense and special teams).

People who argue that running QBs can’t win Super Bowls also contend in many cases that they can NOT lead a franchise at all in any capacity and should be moved to another position altogether…

There is another underlining argument in play here that is based upon a bias based upon style of play or race or BOTH.

The Falcons had Chris Chandler in 1998, but he had veteran WRs who were former All-Pros in Tony Martin and Terence Mathis and Jamal Anderson as the starting RB who rushed for 1800 yards during the regular season and very important on play-action plays. Additionally, they had a great defense, a Top 10 defense… for the Falcons franchise they only had a Top 10 defense five times in its 40 year history…

However, Chandler’s POOR DECISION MAKING (in addition to being mobile) cost the Falcons and gave SuperBowl away. Denver was on the ropes and the Falcons were able to move the ball, but Chandler felt the need to force the ball in critical situations which played right into the Broncos’ hands….(three interceptions…)

How would a dual-threat QB handle that? How would Vick handle that situation with the same offensive weapons that Chandler had?

A quick sidebar, who gives the Vikings the best chance of winning a Super Bowl: a younger, more mobile Tarvaris Jackson who has the support of the locker room or an aging, less mobile (interception-prone) gunslinger in Brett Favre…?

Temple you had said this:

….”Scramblers, however, are not all the same. As stated up top, the key is being able to sustain plays for your offense when the defense meets the challenge. The better your opponent, the greater the need for a QB who can keep plays alive. The critical question is, “What does the QB do to keep the play alive?”…”

My answer is perception vs. reality…

Brett Favre faltered down the stretch with the Jets and they didn’t make the playoffs, and the coach got fired… while Taravris Jackson made enough plays down the stretch (including beating Arizona on the road) to help get the Vikings into the playoffs…) Brett didn’t receive enough criticism for his meltdown, and Tavaris didn’t receive enough praise as a young, emerging QB for rallying his team down the stretch…

Yet people say Brett gives the Vikings the best chance to win…

Chad Pennington, an aging veteran QB with Miami played poorly when pressured against the Ravens…Pennington was just throwing the ball in the air with no idea where it was going and took the Dolphins totally out of that playoff game by halftime… Tarvaris made fewer bad decisions and helped to keep his team competitive in a close loss to Philly…(no shame there)…

What separates Chad Pennington from Taravris Jackson in 2008-09?

However, Pennington doesn’t have to worry about losing his job during the offseason like Tarvaris does, but Pennington really showed his age in a very important game..

Perception vs. reality…

I dont know why…but I cant stop laughing at that. I’m not sure if its because I can visualize the look on the guy’s face that said it…knowing he was dead serious with that foolishness…or the look on YOURS….it is really cracking me up!

It should be noted that in this Top 10 of QBs by rushing yards, they’ve combined for a total of 3 Super Bowl wins. Those Super Bowl wins were all basically accomplished when running was a secondary feature of their game.

To further add to the point about the virtue of scramblers — look at the top 10 list in terms of passing yards.

1. Brett Favre
2. Dan Marino
3. John Elway
4. Warren Moon*
5. Fran Tarkenton
6. Vinny Testaverde
7. Peyton Manning
8. Drew Bledsoe
9. Dan Fouts
10. Joe Montana

This group has 8 Super Bowl victories.

The scramblers have 7 of the titles if you exclude Manning — but to be fair, his mobility is vastly underrated. He doesn’t run often, but he runs well. In 2006, he had 4 rushing touchdowns. In 2007, he had 3. And he clearly knows how to keep plays alive.

At the end of the day, most of the receivers who caught most of the balls from the guys on the Rushers List would make better Used Car Salemen than football players — and the reverse is true of the guys who played for the guys on the Passers List.

Greatest Regular Season by a QB ever?
Brady’s 2007 or Culpepper’s 2004 (with an injured Randy Moss)? Remember that?

Fundamentally, I agree with your premise — but I would argue that the term “dual-threat” is really beside the point. In other words, can an immobile QB win a SB? Yes, but the odds are slim. It is unlikely that a team will win a SB with an immobile QB. Can a team win with a scrambler? Absolutely. The record shows these QBs are best suited to win Super Bowls.

Scramblers, however, are not all the same. As stated up top, the key is being able to sustain plays for your offense when the defense meets the challenge. The better your opponent, the greater the need for a QB who can keep plays alive. The critical question is, “What does the QB do to keep the play alive?” If they habitually run first and over the course of a season run somewhere around 80 to 100 or more times, that team is NOT going to win a SB until the game changes. If that QB keeps plays alive and passes the rock and takes what’s there and runs between 40 and 65 times per season, that team can make it happen.

In Vick’s last season, he ran 123 times. The game is simply not suited for that style of play because it often robs an offense of two of its greatest qualities — 1) the ability to physically wear down a defense by running the ball; and 2) the ability to put pressure on the opposing offense by scoring points in the passing game.

It’s not merely about the effectiveness of the ONE. It’s about what the other 52 are doing or not doing while that 1 is making up for the failures of the owner and general manager.

Of course, I believe that Vick would have been SPECTACULAR with Michael Turner and Roddy White (the focused version), but that never happened. We concur that the Falcons built a flawed team from the beginning and were bailed out by MV7 athletic ability. My simple point is that putting him in that situation was patently unfair and racist — at the same time.

Dual-threat QBs have already demonstratively answered the question of whether or not they can win Super Bowls — but they do it by posing the threat — not by actually fulfilling the promise.

The reasons are obvious. Generally, to win a SB, you have to have quality offensive options. So, if your team is talented enough to get to the game, you’re probably not running too much. Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning are Exhibit 1A and 1B. In the last two Super Bowls, the games were defined by the ability of these two players to scramble to keep plays alive. In 2007, the pass to David Tyree was only possible AFTER a tremendous move to evade the defense and stay upright by Manning. In 2008, BR made plays all over the field by scrambling BEHIND the line of scrimmage.

People may not like, but it is effective. It worked for Montana too — and he had Jerry Rice and John Taylor and Brent Jones and Tom Rathman and Roger Craig and Wendell Tyler.

Scrambling like Bradshaw or Staubach or Elway or Favre or Jim Plunkett (think waaaay back) or Jeff Hostetler or Ken Stabler or even Peyton Manning is critical to being able to win big time playoff games and Super Bowls. Statues rarely win the big game — think Drew Bledsoe or Dan Marino or Matt Hasslebeck. Its not about running for yards from scrimmage. That doesn’t work — and no one has a single, solitary ring to argue otherwise.

The key is being able to stretch the field to keep defenses honest so that your team has room to operate. Running QBs don’t keep defenses honest. And, apparently, they don’t keep the media honest either.

As has been noted, McNair didn’t play in an offense that could stretch the field. That’s why Indy slammed the door on the Ravens a few years back. Indy knew they couldn’t be beat over the top. Same scenario for the Falcons vs. the Eagles and other teams they’ve faced. You’ve gotta be able to get over the top.

‘If a QB runs too much, he can get killed out there’ or QBs who run aren’t very successful…. who are these critics really referring to? It’s an effort to get in the head or into the psyche of the BLACK QB, the primarily white GM, primarily white owner and predominately white fanbase that believes a QB who has the ability to run the football is BAD and should be treated like the ‘boogey man’ that everyone must stay away from…

This boogey man strategy toward African-American QBs has a racial element to it, because it is primarily targeted toward successful dual-threat QBs (mostly black)who are currently on a NFL roster or successful collegiate QBs with NFL aspirations, and it has had an affect on stymieing the flow of dual-threat QBs in receiving a chance to compete on the NFL level for a chance to be a starting QB (i.e. D.J. Shockley, Troy Smith, Josh Johnson, Dennis Dixon, Seneca Wallace…etc..)

Coaches and general managers should support their dual-threat QB the same way they would a traditional drop-back passer, but it seems these types of QBs (who usually win more than they lose) are always treated differently by GMs or coaches who won’t properly utilize surrounding offensive personnel IN SUPPORT OF THEIR DUAL-THREAT QB…

Warrick Dunn is 180 lb RB, but once Vick left in 2007, they didn’t keep him around too long to help golden boy MATT RYAN (oh, no… they acquired the 5’11/245 lb Michael Turner)..why couldn’t Falcons management do this for Vick when he was playing? I hope somehow St. Louis acquires Vick in a few weeks and pair him up with Stephen Jackson with the Rams…

If McNabb was somehow shipped out of town, and Kevin Kolb became the new guy, I would bet serious money that the 240lb Chris Wells of Ohio State with 4.45 speed would have been chosen instead of the scatback from the University of Pittsburgh..

Randall Cunningham had a long and successful career which warrants Hall of Fame consideration. He was the ultimate dual-threat quarterback, but that myth still permeates today. Cunningham did get hurt, but most QBs do. However, critics saying QBs are more likely to get hurt if they run is some major league B.S. However, even though it has been disproven, the Trent Dilfers, Mark Schlerths and other ‘haters’ still throw it out there… Now they are really silent about the Matt Hasselbacks, Matt Leinarts, Carson Palmers, but bark on the highest hilltop in regards to dual-threat QB’s alleged shortcomings…

Michael Vick (2001-2006) has one bad preseason game against the Baltimore Ravens in which he should have been giving the ball to a power running back and calling it a night, but got caught by Adalius Thomas from behind. Vick missed ten games in 2003. However, it didn’t deter Vick from running the ball and he played in nearly all the games in 2004, 2005 and 2006…while Carson Palmer has been truly injury prone and is jittery every time a defender comes toward his legs in the pocket!

McNabb was much healthier when he was running the ball more (1999-2003), but he finally succumbed to being a ‘real QB’ and staying in the pocket and got bent backwards by Adrian Wilson a few years ago and he has been somewhat injury prone ever since he was persuaded to act like a ‘real’ QB just like Peyton, Carson and Kurt Warner…

As for McNabb if he had someone like a Michael Turner or Eddie George, McNabb and the Eagles would have a couple of rings right now…in my humble opinion..and also Vick as well…

In conclusion, dual threat QBs can win, but these myths about them need to be shattered…

Kudos to Patrick for highlighting the success Vick and Young had in the league. Before Vick came to the NFL McNair had already had great success as a running QB. He really came into his own when Heimerdinger came on board and recognized his similarity to Elway.

But again Patrick nails it with the receiving corps and pass protection on these teams. Speaking about that Titans because that’s where I lived, those cats never had a strong receiving corp. They found Derrick Mason by accident and the year he and Drew had a 1000 yards each that had as much to do with McNair balling out of his mind than anything else. The pass protection would alway take a couple of years to be really good. And if the running game was struggling then forget it. McNair HAD to be a running qb for long stretches of time.

If you look at the statistics of the “WHITE” Qb’s who were elite runners: Tarkenton, Elway and Steve Young, it is painfully obvious that Tarkenton was 0-4 in Super Bowls; Elway was a disastrous 0-3 in Super Bowls (pre-Terrell Davis); and Young could not even GET TO THE SUPER BOWL until 1995.

And conversely, the 3 best pure pocket passers of the last 30 years are Dan Marino, Warren Moon and Dan Fouts (and not necessarily in that order). They had largely similar results in the post-season. Marino played in one SB and was dismantled by the 49ers. Moon and Fouts struggled to get of the AFC for various reasons and never competed in a Super Bowl.

I find the entire conversation about great QBs to be skewed in a manner that is painfully uninformed. I wrote a piece a few months back about how every single QB in the league history (great or otherwise) has a piss poor record in post-season games when they throw a high number of passes (45+). Yet, somehow or other, our memories fail us into believing that guys like Montana or Favre or Bradshaw “would have pulled it out” when there isn’t a scintilla of evidence to suggest they would have.

Bottom line: QB’s run when any of these factors exist: 1) Their receiving options suck; 2) Their pass protection sucks 3) Their capacity to read defenses is limited or 4) They CAN.

The racism in this conversation revolves around the fact that the media ascribes reasons 1 and 2 to white runners and reasons 3 and 4 to Black quarterbacks. This isn’t always the case, but the pattern is largely consistent. MV7 was a runner. Elway was a runner early — and a scrambler late. Steve Young was a runner. Montana was a scrambler. Tarkenton was mostly a scrambler. These are the subtle differences that escape so-called “sportswriters.”

And so it goes.

jimmy paz

The mainstream sports media is still very close-minded, skeptical and cynical toward the African-American QB (dual threat or traditional) and that undercurrent of collective contempt derives from viewing the QB position as one of the last bastions of dominance by primarily whites playing that position. In Minnesota, we are seeing this play out with Brett Favre and the public dissing by Vikings ownership of Tarvaris Jackson.

However, I do see a pending shift and among some coaches who are trying to incorporate wildcat formations. Tim Tebow may become the updated 2010 version of Steve Young…or the Elvis Presley of dual-threat QBs. In the near future you may see a greater push and/or acceptance to give rushing totals from a QB ‘more respect’….

Why? Because the NFL is a ‘win now league’ and look at the last ten to twelve years, the African-American dual-threat QB has had just as much success (especially early in their careers than their white counterparts). Parcells went to a wildcat formation, because he needs to win–now.. The Falcons in 2001 needed to win immediately and with the drafting of Vick, they did…same thing with Vince Young, McNabb and even Culpepper…

Michael Vick has been out of football for TWO FULL YEARS, but he has been to more Pro Bowls (3) than Carson Palmer (2), Eli Manning (1) and Phillip Rivers.

Michael Vick is a real QB who has won REAL NFL GAMES! He has led his teams to playoff berths, and revolutionized the QB position with his style of play.

However in an attempt to answer Mizzo’s question: Until a black dual-threat QB wins multiple championships, the mainstream sports media will be slower to accept…Vick, (younger McNabb– 2001, 2002) came close and that scared a lot of folks in the media…

What’s that old saying? …’They aren’t going to give you respect, you got to take respect…’

The way Vick played a few years back personified that old saying…I just wish he had a power running back like an Eddie George or Jamal Anderson or Jerome Bettis….