The Starting Five All Time All Around NBA 25

62 Responses to “The Starting Five All Time All Around NBA 25”

1. JD Says:
   November 5th, 2009 at 5:18 pm

   I was going to go absolutely apeshit over the PF choice until I re-read the piece. I would pick Duncan over the black John Daly but I digress.

2. mookie Says:
   November 5th, 2009 at 5:19 pm

   Mizzo, great list, I agree with most of it, and I’mma let you finish, BUT, please explain to me what Gary Payton has done in his career to surpass John Stockton on this list? Please…?

   Now, everyone has their own list and their own opinion, but of course these lists are here for discussion, so I’ve got to know…

   On that note, bare in mind that I’m a Blazers fan, how does Bill Walton make the list over Shaq? You say injuries are an issue — big Bill was full of them. I think Shaq deserves his place…

3. Tariq Says:
   November 5th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

   Hmm, interesting…

   I’d take Iverson over Drexler. You could argue that Wade is better than Iverson, but in my mind if you rank Wade lower than Drexler at this point in his career, then Iverson should come before Wade as well by default. I realize that this is a low-point in AI’s career, but look at the facts: Iverson is BY FAR the superior scorer, the superior ball-handler (poor Clyde had ZERO ball-handling skills), and averaged more assists for his career. Clyde took a stacked Portland team to the Finals and ran into Jordan. AI took one of the WORST teams ever to reach a Finals on his back and ran into Shaq-Kobe. AI didn’t have a Hakeem to help propel him to a ring. Clyde never SNIFFED an MVP. It’s relatively close, but I say it’s Iverson.

4. Tariq Says:
   November 5th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

   Also, for all his faults, I don’t know about Moses over Shaq. I know people equate him with Darryl Dawkins, but dude locked the league DOWN for three years. I mean it was literally impossible to stop him from 2000-2002. If he had been more motivated, we could be talking about the MDE for real.

5. Mizzo Says:
   November 5th, 2009 at 7:33 pm

   Tariq you are correct fam but the criteria has nothing to do with dominance. All around versatility reigns.

   Did Stockton ever sniff a triple double? Was he know for anything defensive. That’s why Kidd and Payton win out.

   I also didn’t want to smack you all in the face with stats because it diminishes the discussion. Drexler was a far better all around player than Iverson and held his own against Mike in the Finals.

6. uberVU - social comments Says:
   November 6th, 2009 at 12:56 am

   Social comments and analytics for this post…

   This post was mentioned on Twitter by Mizzzzo: TSF’s All Time All Around Top 25 Players. You will want to comment. http://tinyurl.com/yavmpn4...

7. Wally Sparks Says:
   November 6th, 2009 at 1:23 am

   I agree with everything listed except the exclusion of Shaq.

   That’s funny that you put up a pic of Shaq getting broke down by Olajuwon as to say to the reader…”I know what you’re thinking, but no way Shaq makes this list.” Ha!

   Good read.

8. AB Says:
   November 6th, 2009 at 2:26 am

   I’d take McHale over Big ‘E’ and/or The Mailman, and I’d take Havlicek over any of the small forwards not named Pippen or Bird.

9. Aki Tymes Says:
   November 6th, 2009 at 4:15 am

   Ok here i go..Im tired of people omitting Doc off of lists and commentary when speaking of the history of the game! Name another player who took his team to the NBA finals 4 out of 6 years with “no Hall of Famers”! (until Moses, and then they won). There is no other player that has had as much impact on the game of basketball than Julius and Mr…. Read MoreJordan..period!You wouldnt even be watching the same game of basketball today! Larry had a better team! Magic had a better team, and a weak West Coast in the 80’s! Check the stats of Julius and Larry head to head..Doc ate Larry’s lunch when he came into the league, up until like 84 when Doc was past his prime.Somebody check these game for game stats! The ABA hurts him all the time!In closing you mean to tell me that Larry’s stats would be better than Docs stats if Doc didnt play in the ABA (1971 to 1987)..please! Bird was not a better basketball player..yeah I said it!

10. Mizzo Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 8:00 am

    Thanks for checking it out fellas. Trust my phone is ringing off the damn hook and that’s from current and former players. Even one who played with Mike.

    Aki you know more than anyone here that Doc is my mans but like I said on FB, the criteria here is all around. I have to find the link of my other list and this one will make much more sense. Trust me, I hear everything you say fam. You know where I stand with Doc. It killed me to leave him off.

    Read this piece on the old site about the Evolution of the Slasher. We talked about that piece years ago before I even wrote it.

    JD. Duncan couldn’t handle Webber until he was broke down, what the hell was he going to do with a 6′4″ monster who tore the rim down from seemingly the 3 point line.

    Barkley was a problem. Only the Bulls could stop him. He would have fouled Duncan out just like he did the Reign Man.

    Too big, too physical and way too smart. I know Chuck props TD as the best but he sure as hell wouldn’t have said that during his playing days.

    Tell Timmay to ask David Robinson about that.

    The Top 5 are listed where they are because that was when the league was the truth. You had to fight for yours. Ain’t all this bs hand checking fouls that go on today. What would those top players do if they could basically roam free on the court? How many points would they average? Especially Mike.

    DJ Waaaallly Sparks: Shaq should have had at least 4 or 5 rebounding and shot block titles. Why didn’t he? He does not make this list because Dream stuck a broom in every thing Orlando. They blame it on Nick, but what about the other three games?

    Big E would have murdered McHale. He was just too skilled and a very underrated talent. Check it.

    AB. Where did either of your choices fill up the stat sheet? If I didn’t add my favorite player of all time…Doc, then no way is ANOTHER Celtic gonna make it. No Hondo, no way!

    You must be a Celtic fan fam. Dude…

    

11. Temple3 Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Just a couple of quick points:

    Point Guards:
    I think the conversation about GREAT Two-Way Guards probably starts with two guys: Walt “Clyde” Frazier and Isiah Lord Thomas. I’m not picky about the order, but these two men demonstrated the leadership, the championship grit and the toughness to merit their place atop this particular leader board.

    For me, Oscar and Magic are givens because of their versatile floor game. Magic, however, doesn’t get his seat at the table because of his defense. That’s why Michael Cooper was so important.

    Frankly, I’d also add Dennis Johnson to this list ahead of Payton and Kidd. Johnson was as good defensively, if not better, as either of them. He was head-and-shoulders above Kidd as an offensive player and comparable to Payton.

    Without respect to order, I’d go: Clyde, Zeke, Buck, DJ, and the Big O. I dare you to get past half court — or not get your lights shot out in the 4th quarter.

12. Mizzo Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    See this is why I have these discussions. How the hell could I forget about Clyde?

    36 and 19 is just crazy.

    I gotta stick with Kidd and Payton because they would throw up a triple double on anyone at anytime and you guys are killing me with all these damn Celtics.

    I like to think of DJ the Supersonic…it’s a better shade of green.

13. Temple3 Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    You know I’m going to go through the rest of the positions — but time does not permit at the moment. I’ve haven’t even posted my own Week 9 picks yet.

    About them forwards — man, we need to talk.

14. Mizzo Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    This not about who is the best. It’s about the best all around. Period brotha.

    I’m about to post my picks now.

15. Tariq Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    So Mizzo, if you were GM of the Philly 76ers right now, you would draft a young Drexler over a young Iverson?

16. Mizzo Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    I’d take Iverson, but Drexler is a better all around player.

17. Tariq Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    I don’t understand the logic.

18. Tariq Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 6:20 pm

    If you mean better ALL-AROUND player, then Scottie Pippen is probably the best ALL-AROUND player of all time. What does that mean?

19. Mizzo Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

    The best all around players change the game. They advance thought.

    This piece was not about who the best was or is but more about versatility.

    It just so happens that in some cases it’s true.

20. Tariq Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    If the discussion is about “changing the game” and “advancing thought,” then I would argue that what AI has contributed just in the form of the crossover has done so much for this game. Every young boy on the playground today MUST incorporate that into his game. And that’s because of Allen Iverson. And don’t bring Timmy Hardaway into this because his crossover was different.

21. GrandNubian Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 9:44 pm

    LOL…..I think i’m gonna stay out of this one.

22. Big Man Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 9:49 pm

    I think y’all shorted John Stockton by not putting him over Kidd. I actually think Stockton and Payton are better than Kidd.

    Tariq

    I’ve written the same thing about Iverson many times over at Slamonline.

23. Temple3 Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 10:19 pm

    Mizzo:

    My contention isn’t that Clyde and DJ were better than Kidd and Payton. My point is that Clyde brought championship offense and defense to the court — and so did DJ — on multiple occasions. For me, Kidd’s just out of the conversation because of his inability to shoot. He’s superlative at everything else — but if he could score, the Nets might have beaten the Spurs back in the day. It was like playing 4-on-5. Payton’s a ‘G,’ but Clyde and DJ live in the neighborhood where Payton gets pulled over by the police.

    Also, from a pure versatility standpoint, the two guard list probably has to include Alvin Robertson. He is the only player - other than Hakeem Olajuwon - that I can recall recording a quadruple double. I’m a bit sketchy on that and don’t have the time to check, but Robertson was excellent with respect to steals, rebounding, passing and scoring.

    He was not the slasher-type of transcendent scorer that comes to mind when you see names like Drexler and Wade — but he did notch the QuadDub.

    As for the forwards, I need you to tell me how Dominique made your list. I really don’t get it. He didn’t pass or defend on transition or the half court. He blocked shots as a help defender and occasionally stood in a passing lane, but I’m not feeling him one itty bitty bit. If you said Terry Cummings, I’d say, that was subtly done. If you said James Worthy, I’d say, “Okay.” If it was Bernard King or Marques Johnson (known for playing superb defense vs. the Sixers), we’d be cool…but ‘Nique? Nah.

    LeBron James in the 2000 version of Elgin Baylor. Just because Baylor played 4 decades ago, doesn’t mean he’s been surpassed as an all-around talent. After all, his greatest claim to fame is saving the Lakers franchise from going belly up. No one on any of these lists can top that one. I’m not big on the rankings, but I appreciate that you keep Elgin where he belongs.

    I can’t really argue with your Power Forwards, but a part of me is thinking that Kevin McHale is screaming for inclusion on this list…but if Bird and Parish rolled with KG, they would have PULVERIZED the Lakers. So, KMac has to wait his turn.

    I like the center list, but it’s hard to argue with Shaquille over Moses. For all of Moses’ dominance, he was only able to get over the hump against an aging Jabbar and a team that did not feature James Worthy, Bob McAdoo or a healthy Norm Nixon. Other than that, Big Mo came up dry. I’m a huge fan of Moses, but Shaq could fit here because his passing was legit — as was his defense — and in his prime, he really ran the floor and posed a size/height challenge unseen since Wilt. Moses was the quintessential rebounder, but not the quintessential shot changer. He also didn’t play during Rodman years.

    That’s who has all of Shaq’s rebounding titles. Shaq’s rookie year — he averaged 13.9 rebs per game. Rodman averaged 18. Shaq averaged twice as many blocks as Mo, and twice as many assists. I’ll roll with the Diesel.

24. Tariq Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 10:36 pm

    Big Man: Allenp??

25. Mizzo Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 12:53 am

    Dude we were doing the crossover in the hood while Allen was sucking on pacifiers and eating fat crayons. It was his signature move, but he didn’t create it. I don’t see Allen dominating like he did in his heyday across the lines of history because of his size. He got put on his ass many many times, but what would he do if Kermit Washington, Maurice Lucas or Darryl Dawkins was in the lane?

    I went with Moses because of his tenacity on the glass. It’s my opinion that Shaq was lazy on a lot of occasions and I remember Dream giving it to him and Penny like it was yesterday. I credit his career but he played in a time where he basically was alone in stature. Mo went up against HOF’ers and dominated up and down the floor. His outlet pass was sick and he played with cats on the glass. I think you are diminishing Moses on defense. He was a shot changer strictly because of desire. I really think Shaq could have done more than he did…which is absurd because he dominated most of his career but he slacked off a bit there and got fat. Straight up.

    Moses has 5,000 more rebounds than Shaq. FIVE THOUSAND. He can have those assists. I do not now how effective Shaq would have been in an age when centers dominated.

    LBJ would do his thing in any era.

    I have to be honest and say the Nique pick was to elicit this very discussion and that his NBA career is shorted a little too much. He has over what 25 K in points, played great help D and got a rip or 2 when he had to? His numbers compare favorably to Doc’s in the NBA. He battled on the boards but not as much as TC early. I’ll give you that.

    If you guys read the piece you would see that injuries were a major factor in determining placement. When TC’s knees went bad he became just another player.

    Doc (I wish he never played in the NBA because he’s become Warren Moon in a sense with those 5 years) gets his so despite being an icon, I’d rather give Nique some shine here. I’m glad you brought up Terry Cummings. Injuries diminished his career in my opinion but for nine years he was solid from the gate. Dude was a rock since DePaul way back. One of my Pop’s favorite players during that time. The elder Meyer as well.

    I’d still take Nique’s 24 and 6 over TC’s 16 and 7.

    Tariq Allen Iverson is a one dimensional player and will always be known as such. I clamored for his return to Philly and it speaks to his personality that he didn’t return. I’m disappointed in dude. He could have handled these last couple of years better. Now if you are saying scorer? Damn right he’s on this list at 2.

    Temple I would go out on a limb and say that the Sixers would have still romped over the Lakers that season. They were pretty much unstoppable. Kareem was getting up there and had nothing for Moses. He was also a very underrated defender…not just a stick your hand up help type like Shaquille.

    LeBron is there because he will be the top small forward when it’s said and done…Ishna Allah he stays healthy. I’m not shorting Elgin in anyway in saying so.

    Elgin was the origin of Kobe and James evolution. Every legend of the game I speak with says so.

    We all are never going to agree on all the picks right? That’s why I do these. All the secondary names I mentioned warrant merit as well.

    Stockton was a better point guard why because of his assist total? In that case Mark Jackson is what second? What else could he do besides pop a shot when his team needed him to? His hands were extraordinary but on defense he was a MAJOR liability. Jason Kidd should have two MVPs…the years he put the Nets on his back and made it to the Finals.

    I so wanted to put Rod Strickland on this list. That was my dude right there.

26. Tariq Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 2:31 am

    Dude, I never said that AI CREATED the crossover. In fact in that same post I mentioned Tim Hardaway.

    My point is that Iverson RE-INVENTED the crossover. And that if your discussion has to do with “changing the game” and “advancing thought,” then Iverson’s contribution should count for something. Because your criteria for these lists seems to fluctuate: At times you seem to be saying that VERSATILITY is the key factor, in which case there is NO WAY Larry Bird is a better all-around player than Scottie Pippen. I mean, sure, Bird was a BETTER player, but he wasn’t a more versatile player. Which brings us back to this “advancing thought” argument. I’m not saying that Iverson’s re-invention of the crossover is the end-all be-all of his placement on this list. I’m just saying it should count for something.

    Or do you think that Iverson added nothing to the crossover?

    And I do agree with you that there are MANY flaws in Allen Iverson’s game. Sure, he is in many ways a one-dimensional player. Does that diminish from his greatness? Perhaps. That’s why we’re comparing him to Clyde Drexler and not someone more accomplished. If the other parts of his game were on par with his scoring, we’d be arguing over whether he should be ahead of Kobe.

27. Tariq Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 2:36 am

    Also, eating fat crayons is unwise. And those crayons aren’t fat, they’re just “healthy.”

28. Tariq Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 2:44 am

    Oh, and it’s been a long time since I’ve read a Temple3 comment. I MISS YOU TEMPLE3! Water is water!

29. Mizzo Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 2:52 am

    LOL I’m sure Crayola agrees. The criteria doesn’t fluctuate and I’m glad you brought up what my adviser and I hoped you would and that’s that Scottie Pippen is arguably the best all around small forward of all time…handle…defense…athleticism…fire…intelligence. If I was picking a team of past stars, I’d be pressed not to take him after Mike or Dream. He could give you just a little less what Magic did but essentially more (defense).

30. Tariq Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 3:15 am

    Well, if your criteria is versatility, then Pippen is definitely the best small forward of all time. In fact, you could make a very solid argument of him being the best all-around player (i.e. most versatile player) of all time. Even more than Mike or Dream. Mike couldn’t run the point, at least not like Scottie.

    But here’s the thing: so what?

    You say that if you were picking a team of past stars, you’d be pressed not to take him after Mike or Dream. I think you would of course be getting a tremendous player, but you would be leaving a lot of superior players on the table.

    Think of it this way: switch Bird and Pippen. How many titles do the Bulls win with Mike and Bird? Do the Bulls win any titles with just Bird during Mike’s sabbatical? How about the Celtics? For all the 1,394 things he does well on the basketball court, could Pippen do what Bird on those Boston squads: Be a leader? Make clutch shot after clutch shot? Win THREE titles?

    Maybe. What do you guys think?

31. Eric Daniels Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 3:16 am

    Connie Hawkins, the first modern high- flyer, without the Hawk you don’t have Dr. J, or MJ. And he is the first of his kind, the modern Power Forward the Duncans, KG, and Karl Malones would not exist without Connie Hawkins Mizzo.

32. Tariq Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 3:22 am

    Also, please explain this statement, Mizzo:

    “[Scottie] could give you just a little less than what Magic did…”

    Are you saying that Scottie’s skills as a point guard are only FRACTIONALLY inferior to Magic’s? Because if that’s the case, I must not have a very good understanding of basketball at all. I think I must have misunderstood you.

33. mizzo Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 4:17 am

    I wish you could have heard the conversation I had last night and who it was with. I don’t speak just from my own mind. I don’t pay attention to stats for the most part and deal with the player. How will the kids know if they don’t learn the total game? My initial words explain the post. If you are injured? Fall back. If you spent your prime in the ABA? Chill. This is a NBA post. Now of course this is all subjective but taking legends at their word is peace for me over the hype of media babes. See I say the Celtics win more with Pip because he locks down Doc and Magic or Worthy or Cooper. Its like saying a center fielder is better than Griffey because he makes the spectacular catch when 24 makes it easy. Larry played with great players. Pip did not with one notable exception. I list Bird higher because of all the Oscars that influenced the next generation.

34. Tariq Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 4:46 am

    I think I have an idea of what your other “more controversial” article was gonna be

35. Eric Daniels Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 7:08 am

    Hawk only spent two years in the ABA, most of his great years were in the NBA but I think I get the gist of your argument.

36. Mizzo Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 8:08 am

    Yes, but his prime was spent out of basketball because of the bs scandal. I just wish he would have spoken his peace more. He was ROBBED. Doc’s use of his hands with the ball was driven through Hawk’s origin.

37. Mizzo Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 8:13 am

    Speak it Tariq and I’ll answer you.

38. Temple3 Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Tariq:

    Thanks.

    Mizzo:

    I’m going to stick with the versatility point. We agree that Moses’ game was more evolved that Shaq’s — and when I say that, I mean his offensive game. You’ll get no argument from me on that. Where we disagree is with respect to the balance of their repertoire. Moses Malone was not a defensive intimidator. He was an offensive intimidator. He was a rebounding monstrosity, behemoth, Leviathan, man-child-man-grown ass man. He was not a willing passer (maybe a function of his teammates) and he was not a shot blocker.

    The job of a great center is to impose their will on both ends of the floor and in transition.

    You have a list of 5 centers, 4 of whom meet this criteria. Moses Malone does not.

    You’ve cited the differentials in rebounding by talking about “raw numbers” or “totals.” If you look at the averages, we’re talking about very modest differences. Moses - 12.2. Shaq - 11.2. Not really a big deal. The biggest differential is with respect to offensive rebounding. Moses averaged more than 5 per game, Shaq averages about 3.6. That’s a tremendous difference — and we know that without looking at the stats.

    For me, though, the question is how do you amplify Moses’ rebounding edge (without properly restricting it to offensive rebounding) while giving such short shrift to Shaq’s sizeable advantages as a passer and shot blocker? As I said offline, Shaq’s advantages in these categories is nearly 2:1. The only area where Moses’ enjoys such an advantage over Shaq is on the offensive glass.

    Is that enough for you? Why?
    ——————————-
    Dominique.

    For me, I hear where you’re coming from. If you want to rule out Bernard King because of injuries, it’s a choice. Bernard still played a lot of basketball. ‘Nique was also injured.

    Dominique was such a phenomenal talent that it’s hard to say someone was better than him at anything. Still, my perceptions/recollections of him were as a transition rebounder (rather than a half-court, knock heads when you have to rebounder), a disinterested defender and a reluctant passer. What did you see?

39. Tariq Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    So are you saying that Dream was a better all-around player than Wilt Chamberlain?

40. Temple3 Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    6′10″, 215 lbs. vs. 7′2″ 320 lbs.

    I suspect that the reason why the rebounding totals are so disparate is because Shaq has missed so many games due to injury. But, as I’ve said, the averages are not different in a way that’s statistically significant. I’m guessing, but I’d also think that pace of the game differentials adversely impact Shaq’s #’s as well. He did play through the grind it out NBA years where the Bulls, Knicks and Heat ground teams down to a whiny pulp. Moses’ era was a bit more open ended — by and large.

41. Temple3 Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 5:54 pm

    Tariq:

    I’m not sure if that question is for me — but all I know about Olajuwon is that his game had ZERO limits and he had ZERO opponents who bested him at the highest level. Not so with Wilt.

42. Tariq Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 8:20 pm

    Well, my favorite player of all time is Hakeem Olajuwon, but I’ve been brought up to believe that he was way down the pecking order of great centers. I really can’t speak with any authority on Wilt and Russell. As for Shaq, again, I always viewed his place in history through the prism of those 3 years (2000-2002). So, I imagined a match-up between him and Hakeem with Shaq in Laker colors, and in my mind I couldn’t imagine Shaq not getting the best of that match-up, just because of how he seemed so unstoppable during the Lakers’ title runs. I mean, especially when they went 15-1 in the playoffs, he just seemed like a beast. This isn’t a very scientific argument, I’m just talking about my impressions. But in the past year, especially since SLAM magazine placed Shaq 4th on their Top 50 list, I’ve been hearing a backlash concerning Shaq. I’ve been hearing how Shaq doesn’t deserve his place in history and all that. People started pointing out how he got swept out of the playoffs multiple times and all that.

    Anyway, if Hakeem really is the best center of all time…Awesome!

43. Mizzo Says:
    November 7th, 2009 at 10:32 pm

    I truly feel Shaq came along in an optimal time because of the lack of mirror career peers. Like I said offline, if Dwight Howard came along during that time, he would be considered the same…and will be eventually because there are NO centers.

    It’s hard to disagree with the impressive list Moses had to deal with night in and night out.

    I don’t consider Shaq an impressive defensive player…besides his size. He seemed to be sticking his hand up and getting blocks off help. Like I said before, Dream MURDERED him. Check the scoring and rebounding average in that particular series. It was ridiculous the disparity. I also say that Shaq came along when teams like Barkley’s suns and Glide’s Trail Blazers changed the league tempo.

    We agree on Nique. We also agree on transition rebounds and tip dunks..but that’s what he did. He was one of the first in that regard.

    I had to put someone on this list that’s controversial right?

44. Temple3 Says:
    November 8th, 2009 at 2:37 am

    Mizzo:

    As I said previously, we’ve agreed to disagree on this principally because of your exclusion of blocks and assists from consideration of all-around centers. Be that as it may, one of your central arguments is also one of your weakest. When Moses was in his athletic prime as a championship winner with the 76ers (at age 27), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was 35. Bob Lanier was 34 and a year away from retirement. He played less than 35 games the season the Sixers won it all. Artis Gilmore was 33. Dan Issel was 34. Tree Rollins was 27, but his career scoring average is under 6 points per game. So, this notion of Moses rampaging through the league against a bunch of legends in their prime is all a myth. It’s a fable that we remember from our youths but it is simply that — a fable. Just like “Fo, fo, fo.” It never happened.

    The 1982-83 Nets, of course, had Darryl Dawkins (26)…and we all know what happened the next year.

    Moses Malone led a Sixer team that became the first and only defending champion to get booted in the first round of the playoffs.

    If you want lock Shaq in to his performance in 1995 (as a 3rd year, on a team with a 2nd year point guard — against a defending champion), okay, but let’s just recall that the 1st game of that series went to overtime. Remember that Nick Anderson could have easily salted away one win but was unable to do so. Let’s remember that Game 3 was decided by 3 points.

    Game 1: Hakeem 31 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 blocks. (On 13-26 shooting).
    Shaq: 26 points, 16 rebs, 9 assists, 3 blocks. (On 10-16 shooting).
    Game 2: Hakeem 34 points, 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 blocks. (On 14-30 shooting).
    Shaq: 33 points, 12 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 blocks. (On 12-21 shooting).
    Game 3: Hakeem 31 points, 14 points, 7 assists, 0 blocks. (On 14-30 shooting — AGAIN).
    Shaq: 28 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 blocks. (On 11-17 shooting).
    Game 4: Hakeem 35 points, 15 rebounds, 4 assists, 0 blocks. (On 15-30 shooting — I see a pattern here).
    Shaq: 25 points, 12 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 blocks. (On 11-19 shooting).

    From an offensive efficiency standpoint, you can’t pin a single one of those losses on Shaq. Perhaps the fact of the matter was that Houston rolled in with a crew that included Hakeem, Clyde Drexler, Robert Horry, Mario Elie (9-11 shooting in Game 4: compared to Brian Shaw’s 6-15!!), Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell.
    ————————–
    I’m not wedded to disagreement here. I just need stronger more compelling arguments. Everywhere I look, I keep seeing only guys in short shorts. LOL.

45. Temple3 Says:
    November 8th, 2009 at 3:10 am

    Mizzo:

    I’m not saying Moses didn’t run through guys to win those MVP’s…I’m saying that by the time he got over the hump, most of the elite guys were over the hill.

    When Shaq finally won a championship with the Lakers (at age 27), Alonzo Mourning was 29 years old and playing center for the 1st place Miami Heat. David Robinson was 34, but Duncan was 23 and both were coming off a championship. Smits was 33 in Indy and you’re right to note that the changing face of the game meant fewer centers, more emphasis on the 3, and other things, but…

    We are where we are. Have a good one. Enjoy the Iggles-Cowboys manyana — neutrally, of course.

46. Tariq Says:
    November 8th, 2009 at 4:27 am

    Temple3:

    Dang. color me impressed.

47. Ball in Europe – European Basketball Blog » Blog Archive » Best of the (Basketball) Net: Returned from Vacation edition Says:
    November 8th, 2009 at 9:51 am

    [...] the Gotta Love An Argument Trigger Department comes The Starting Five’s list of “The Starting Five All Time All Around NBA 25.” This fan loves Sir Charles in the starting power forward spot but ain’t buying Hakeem Olujawon [...]

48. thebrotherreport Says:
    November 8th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Can we make Ron Harper and Buck Williams honorable mentions???

49. KevDog Says:
    November 9th, 2009 at 9:06 pm

    PG
    1. Magic
    2. Kidd
    3. Isiah
    4. Payton
    5. Oscar

    SG
    1. Kobe
    2. MJ
    3. West
    4. Wade
    5. Cyde

    SF
    1. Brid
    2. LeBron
    3. Scottie
    4. ‘Niqgu
    5. Elgin

    PF
    1. Garnett
    2. Duncan
    3. Malone
    4. Barkley
    5. McHale

    C
    1. KAJ
    2. Wilt
    3. Dream
    4. Shaq
    5. Russel

50. Big Man Says:
    November 10th, 2009 at 11:42 pm

    Tariq
    Yeah, it’s Allenp, so you know I’m rolling with you on how Iverson changed the game with his crossover. Oscar Robertson was doing crossovers, but he wasn’t doing Allen Iverson’s crossover. Nobody was.
    Hakeem and Shaq.
    I”m going to roll with Hakeem because I feel like he was a better two-way player but there can be no doubt that Shaq was incredibly efficient on offense. Much more efficient than Dream. Not more skilled or talented, but more efficient.
    And Temple, you can’t just call Penny a 2nd year point guard. We’re talking about an All-NBA cat, somebody who was challenging for best player in the league when he rolled with Shaq. Come on now. The Magic and Rockets had pretty even talent.

51. Temple3 Says:
    November 12th, 2009 at 6:09 am

    Big Man:

    Theoretically, you’re 100% right. “On paper,” the series should have been more closely contested. I believe that “talent” was only part of the issue. I think experience and the ability to execute in the clutch was also a big deal. The Rockets were defending champions. Hakeem and Clyde were veterans of wars with every “G” in the league. They battled the Lakers, Celtics and Bulls on the biggest stage. Shaq and Penny were fresh out of college, for all intents and purposes. So was Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson. They were “talented,” but they had yet to refine their games. Once you got past Shaq and Penny, the limitations of the offensive skill sets of the Magic became glaring.

    Nick Anderson: streak shooter…powerful lane player; took and missed tough shots all series long after being guarded by experienced physical players like Mario Elie and Clyde Drexler.
    Dennis Scott: dead-eye spot up shooter with little to NO ABILITY to handle the rock. took and missed tough shots all series long after being pushed out of his range and being unable to rely on collapsing defenses hustling off double teams of Shaq on the block.
    Horace Grant: solid rebounder, better defender. modest offensive game.
    Brian Shaw: STOP.
    Donald Royal: DOUBLE STOP.
    Jeff Turner: TRIPLE STOP.

    The Magic didn’t have many guys who could do the things you need to do to rock out in the Finals.
    1) Getting their own shot
    2) Scoring consistently
    3) Making big shots

    The single greatest factor that Orlando never could remedy was the fact that Houston could single cover Shaq. That dug the coffin for every marginal player on their team. Houston went off.

    Orlando’s “talent” was nervous and on the verge of getting exposed. (The only cats on that team we heard from after that followed Shaq.) Game 1: Houston was +7 in turnovers. Game 2: +6. Game 3: +3. Game 4: +9. When guys who are spot up shooters have to dribble — that’s what happens. When guys who used to overpowering college defenders and NBA regular-season effort face up to Clyde Drexler — that’s what happens.

    The Rockets had Dream, Clyde, Big Shot Bob, Sam Cassell, Mario Elie and Kenny Smith. Not all of these guys were prolific scorers, but none of them needed to get their offense off of screens. They could all handle and get to a spot on the floor and score the ball — especially late.

    Houston relied on a different crew in every game. In Game 1, Smith and Elie made 15 shots from the field and scored 41 points. Dennis Scott (one-dimensional Dennis) shot 3-10 and Penny (in his first championship game) shot 11-25. Talent is one thing — but in the Finals, experience and matchups can often mean a great deal more. All of Nick Anderson’s talent eluded him at the free throw line — when he needed it most. Perhaps he would have been better served by experience. Robert Horry had a poor shooting game, but had 8 boards and 5 blocks. Drexler didn’t shoot well either, but almost had a triple double — and the Rockets made their free throws.

    Houston had a better team AND a more experienced team. They didn’t have to look to Brian Shaw and Donald Royal for offense! Yikes! Or Jeff Turner or Anthony Bowie.

    Game 2 — Horry didn’t shoot so well in that game either. So, what did he do? He stuffed the stat sheet like he always does. 10 rebounds, 7 steals, 2 blocks.

    And right when the Magic thought it was safe to go back in the water, Sam Cassell smoked their asses for 31. One-dimensional Dennis had another 3-10 game — trying to figure out how to adjust to the savvy play of these veteran Houston Rockets.

    The games were close because Shaq did so much heavy lifting on both ends of the court…and so did Penny…but it wasn’t enough — not against a team with 2 of the greatest players of all time and one of the greatest post-season studs ever. Orlando had no one to match Cassell and Horry. Penny and Shaq did what they could to neutralize Hakeem and Clyde — but they were new to all of this. And that has to count for something.

    By the time Game 3 rolled around, only Shaq and Ho Grant knew how to hit the broad side of a barn — and most of Horace’s work was off of misses by D. Scott (2-11), Penny (4-10) and Nick Anderson (4-14).

    ———————-
    By the way, I’m still pissed that the Rockets beat the Knicks. I just think this team doesn’t get enough respect.

52. Mark Rich Says:
    November 12th, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    I agree with Aki, Dr J was the only player in both leagues that was the “league”. He was like a rock star and where ever he played he sold out… He was the Mike Jordan of his time. He totally changed the game. Question: Who would you go to see play if you could go back in time..Kareem, Russel, Pippen, Drexler, Garnet, West, Kid, Payton or the Dr? Nuff said. STOP DISRESPECTING THE MAN WHO CHANGED THE GAME.

53. Mizzo Says:
    November 12th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    Mark hush that mess up. lol You are lucky you are my boy. You are all missing the law of the post.

    IT”S ALL AROUND player.

    Not most dominant. Not most talented. Not most decorated. Kids learn more about the game from these type of players.

    I’d take Moses Malone’s tenacity over any center on the list (didn’t see Russell play). That’s why he’s there. I was inspired by him.

    Doc was a scorer and sometime block force in the league. That’s it. What else did he do? This is no slam on Doc. I’m not saying he couldn’t rebound or pass it’s just he didn’t have to.

    He’s my favorite player of all time. Good gracious lol

54. Mark Rich Says:
    November 12th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    Well, if that’s the case then your going to have to take M Jordan off the list, also Isaiah Thomas, Clyde Drexler. I thouht Doc could pass, score, rebound, steal on the break, block shots, foul shots, post up, best in the open court EVER!, shake, break, burn, fake, fly, glide, finger roll. Remember when the cirtics said he didn’t have a jump shot…..The next year Doc shot every jumper off the glass….made darn near everyone. Not one player in HISTORY has ever done this. He had all the fundementals down. The best all around player since Jordan. Barkley has nothing on Doc. Doc has his own song…Passes it to Doc who loses his man, goes to the hoop for a GUSTO SLAM!!!!!

55. Mizzo Says:
    November 12th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Add up the triple doubles of the players you’ve mentioned brothaman. Please do.

    LMAO you had me cracking up fam. I had a flash back to where we gave it to everyone back in the day. I’ll never forget that oop I threw to Aki at the end of the game that bounced off the glass right into the other team’s hands for the game winner. I wanted to run out the gym. Were you on that squad? Blame Aki he called for it lol.

56. Mark Rich Says:
    November 12th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    Everything is all good, when you love Julius Erving it gets emotional when people forget his greatness. Nothing but love Mike. I do think I remember that game. lol.

57. Mark Rich Says:
    November 12th, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    Mike, you forgot Steve Colter and Clement Johnson…lol.

58. michelle Says:
    November 14th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    Good read. Very interesting. I enjoyed the banter going on in the comment section as well.

59. mookie Says:
    November 14th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    Gotta agree. I’ve enjoyed this! After commenting at the start, I found it better to sit back and see what everyone had to say. It’s raised an interesting debate Good post.

60. Whatcha Talkin Bout » Blog Archive » 2 Guys & A Mic - Michael Tillery - EP120 Says:
    November 19th, 2009 at 6:32 am

    [...] Michael Tillery of The Starting Five joins us this week to discuss The All-Around All Time NBA 25. [...]

61. Alexander Moller Says:
    December 30th, 2009 at 8:34 am

    Stockton holds the NBA record for career steals with 3,265, nearly 30 percent more than second placed Michael Jordan, who had 2,514… Now where is his spot as 2nd or 3rd starting PG….

62. k Jessen Says:
    January 16th, 2010 at 5:39 am

    Give me Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, Wilt, and Russell and we’ll beat anybody, anywhere, any time!

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