Lack of Aggression May Prove Costly For Birds
The arrogance of Philadelphia Eagles President Joe Banner reminds me of a scene in The Usual Suspects where agent Kujan tells Roger “Verbal” Kent that he’s “Smarter than him”. In the end Kujan was outsmarted by a con man who used his office as a canvas to paint a story of deception and violence while playing the role of flunkie.
Are the Eagles taking this ho-hum approach because of the non-cap season?
As the NFL shopping season begins, the Eagles have decided to sit on their wallet, at least it looks that way for now. The Chicago Bears have signed big fish Julius Peppers, Chester Taylor, who brings depth and experience to an already effective running attack and tight Brandon Manumaleuna, who has the size of a second tackle. The rival Giants have nabbed safety Antrel Rolle while linebacker Karlos Dansby has been inked by the Miami Dolphins. You know where I’m headed with this?
When it comes to the Eagles using football sense coupled with common sense they can’t get out of their own way and in the end they only outsmart themselves. I’m sure the Eagles took the bait dangling out there regarding Peppers’ work ethic. Someone tell me who doesn’t take plays off. I’m pretty sure they knew they weren’t getting a hitter the likes of Andre Watters when they signed Asante Samuel two years ago. My guess is an NFL offense runs an average of 60-65 plays (35 passes 30 rushes) per game - Peppers may be on the field for about fifty. On each play he’s banging heads with a 300+lb. lineman and maybe a tight end or running back coming in low. Who in their right mind could go full bore each play and last 10 seasons? The Eagles don’t need Peppers to become Reggie White, just warrant an occasional double team and give us 8-10 sacks. I’ll sacrifice sacks for turnovers, a shorter field and 8-10 fewer points a game.
I’m hopeful that Stewart Bradley will come back and be what he was prior to the injury, but you know the cliche’, a player needs a full season to recover from any major knee injury. So why not bring in a Barrett Rudd or DeMeco Ryans at MLB and slide Bradley over to the WIL or SAM, just to take the pounding off of the knees. Maybe with Karlos Dansby (since signed by the Dolphins) on one side and Bradley on the other you can roll the dice on placing Akeem Jordan in the middle.
To know that the Eagles even allowed Antrel Rolle to make the trip to North Jersey considering the dire need for an upgrade at safety is disturbing to me. I like Quentin Mikell but he’s what I call a “feeder” meaning that he plays well when he has players around him that are in an equal or superior skill set -put him in any other situation and he struggles. Rolle would bring additional credibility to a secondary that has been knocked this season for a lack of physicality.
As I’m writing this, the Detroit Lions have released DT Grady Jackson, yes there is some wear on the big fella but I think you can bring him in for depth at the position. When the Eagles subbed for Broderick Bunkley and Mike Patterson, they went with a hyrid look that made them light in the cakes. I’m kinda surprised that the Arizona Cardinals shipped Anquan Boldin to Baltimore so quickly, Antonio Cromartie to the Jets. Even the Lions are making improvements.
Of course I didn’t expect the Eagles to make all of the aforementioned moves, one or two would’ve help out a great deal. Now they’re looking at the second wave of free agents which holds some very good players that can help them.
I’m looking for the Eagles to go after a running back hopefully Thomas Jones, LenDale White or maybe even Larry Johnson or LaDainian Tomlinson. Kerry Rhodes is going to be back with the Jets so they may look to the draft for safety help. There is plenty of defensive help still out there. If the Birds don’t do any thing significant by the end of next week expect their moves to come from the draft and roster cuts in July and August.
I agree Ron
Yeah…………..the Eagles will be Salary Cap Champions of the 2010 season.
Wait you are telling me there is no Salary Cap this year???
Anyway great write up Ron.
I have no idea what these guys are going to do. Then they cut witherspoon too.
Man Joe Banner, Lurie and Reid are a fry short of a happy meal.
Thanks Origin don’t know if you heard but Friday Fox Sports reported that Reid will block any attempt of a McNabb trade, while Lurie and Banner want to move on without Five.
Will give my thoughts on this later.
thats putting it very nicely ron, but the truth is the eagles arent doing crap about thier lousey defense, thier defense as a whole sucks , so does the top brass as well as reid , the very thing they need to do is rebuild that DEFENSE but instead they sit on thier fat wallets while us fans whatch in dread our team fall on thier faces
Yeah Ron I heard that.
Not sure what to make because the media lies so much when it comes to Mcnabb………..who knows.
Reid could be blocking any trade because he knows that without Mcnabb all the blame will fall on him.
Or he could be blocking trades to drive up the cost to get mcnabb.
I mean really who knows. But if they do trade Mcnabb to the Rams or Browns I will be very disappointed if Mcnabb doesn’t black a trade to one of those crappy teams.
Also ain’t that a trip that the Ravens got Boldin. And look the Bengals maybe getting TO for Palmer. I swear its a total joke how some of these QBs are able to get top notch or decent WRs at the drop of a hat. Yet certain QBs will forever be playing with garbage or WRs well past their prime for ever and ever.
I didn’t want to say it family because I’ve said it way too much. That Boldin to Baltimore trade made me sick. I cannot believe the Eagles didn’t go after him.
I knew it would make you sick brotha Mizzo.
See it ain’t just Mcnabb……..why couldn’t the Bucs get Boldin for Josh Freeman. How about Washington get Boldin for Campbell.
Heck I am sure Garrad could use Boldin.
Its just insane how some QBs can get help while other continue to have to throw to trash year end year out.
Plus Marshall might be going to Seattle. I mean you got to be kidding me……….hasselback is going to get another WR??
I said it last year and I will say it again. The NFL is a league in which WR stimulus packages are given out to golden boy QBs every offseason.
I mean I don’t care who you are. If TO goes to the Bengals you have to say the fix is in for certain QBs.
I mean Palmer loses TJ and gets coles. Then he loses Coles and gets TO.
Mcnabb has to beg for help after going to countless Conf. Championships. Yet Palmer and the rest of the golden boys don’t have to say anything and get help ASAP.
You have got to be kidding me. And folks wonder why I am done with the NFL.
Now you know why I felt much better here in Cleveland the last three weeks. None of that bs to deal with in Philly.
That Boldin trade was tough to watch go down. If Marshall goes to the Seahawks I will be convinced that the fix is in for the Black QB.
My question about Reid vs. Banner/Lurie is why is he supposedly blocking a trade instead of fighting to get McNabb an extension. And again if this is the final run, there is no sense of urgency when it comes to improving the roster.
Reid may be blowing smoke for all we know.
I think the Eagles are fine on offense with Weaver and McCoy coming out of the backfield as long as Weaver gets enough situational carries. As a result, McCoy hopefully will become the back Westbrook should have been in this offense.
Maclin worries me. He’s yet to prove he’s gotta rock heart.
Red flag.
I like Celek. We have to remember he was slowed by a thumb injury late. If they all mature (nothing is guaranteed in the NFL) this offense will be dynamic with the parts they have as long as Avant gets his catches.
I just wanted that boss physical receiver so the Eagles could score anytime they basically wanted.
Defensively, as teams are shoring up their own defenses, the Eagles have done nothing. Antrelle Rollle (can he really throw the ball 90 yards?) and Kenny Phillips in New York? Maclin and Jackson better step their respective games up because nothing will be easy against the Giants with what they bring up front. Phillips was a huge loss last season and it was drastically understated.
Against the Giants the Eagles will have to be able to sustain a running attack or Donovan will get beat up.
A comment on Triple Five Soul and why he doesn’t get what others are seemingly given when they sign on the dotted line…the war room concessions if you will:
Think about it. Moon waited six years because of racism and still became a top 5 qb statistically.
Randall led his team an astounding 4 consecutive years in rushing?
Anyway…
If Donovan was given a great receiver at the beginning of his career everything goes up exponentially and yes that most likely includes the shine on his fingers absent of his wedding ring.
That’s a problem. A job security problem. A leadership in the NFL problem. An insecurity problem and ultimately again an impending fanbase problem.
I want these conversations started now so when great mobile
(read:Black)quarterbacks come later they’ll be no denying their prominence early. Not falling for this “Well he needs time to develop or the time on the sideline will help his field general eyes.” That may be true for some, but the sooner you are NFL ready, the sooner to get their asses out there.The Eagles played with McNabb and ruined the health of Westbrook. How can a quarterback’s best weapon be the guy he hands off to? What about who he is throwing to?
We’ve talked about this so much, the sentiment is beginning to spill all over my editor’s Macbook pro. Before it blows up, some things need to be said about 5 just to hedge future discussions:
Honestly, I think the NFL knows if an influx of Black quarterback success happens, the league will go the way of society’s perception of the NBA creating an mainstream exodus from the sport.
Freeman and Terrelle Pryor (subsequently) must scare the hell out of the NFL.
I don’t know who it was but when I (and the rest of us as well) wrote those Donovan McNabb pieces, I caught so much wreck from people who for some reason didn’t see how he was being wronged.
They did the entire time. Just didn’t want to say publicly Donovan deserves some help. Too much like
whiteright.The haters will say “but he has Jackson, Celek and Maclin”, as if young receivers are sufficient or “why are you complaining?” as if he’s lucky he was afforded what he has.
This you are still a nigger nonsense no matter the ascension is tired.
When you see life for what it really is and how middle America is constantly stroked to keep from jumping out of themselves, you get a broader understanding of things.
Donovan McNabb wins a Super Bowl and even their sons will want to emulate him. No Super Bowl, no soul models in the hood and hence young capable qb talent will be pushed in other directions.
This is also a financial thing personally…just so you know. It’s not just about history it’s about those who ultimately give back from whence they came.
No Super Bowl, no service and thus questions will resound regarding 5 induction into the HOF. Donovan has what three or four years left? That’s potentially 15,000 more yards which would put him over 45,000 (Here are the yardage leaders). If he does play four more years. Averaging a mere 20 touchdowns over that span will put him close to 300 tds (he has 216 now. Here are touchdown leaders). He’ll be a top ten (closer to top 5) qb statistically if that happens with a great won loss record (hovering around .645) and a great touchdown to interception rate (.216).
He’s 19th in passing attempts (Favre doubles him).
He’s one of six with 25,000 in the air and 3,000 on the ground.
Here is the list of NFL leaders regardless of posiiton.
I don’t want any crazy and slurping golden boy treatment, I just want McNabb’s career to speak for itself.
McNabb is like Aaron (not comparing greatness. get it right) in that he doesn’t have a 4,000 yard season to his credit…as Hank never hit 50 homers.
The injuries are a byproduct of the game and therefore can’t be mentioned either way but it can be said that 5 is one of the best who has played with the least.
It is that deep.
Yeap brotha Ron something just ain’t right when it comes to these WRs going to certain teams.
But as I always say this is to be expected. I stand by what I always say about black QBs and black coaches………its just like leadership roles in corporate america.
Whether it was my mother who was a manager or my aunt who was a director (both in corporate america). Often times telling me as a child how things were diffferent for black folks in charge. Or how I see with my own eyes working in corporate america, seeing black managers and directors expected to do more with less. Having job titles but not the power that goes along with those job titles. Or how they are suppose to fix something in 2 months where as it took the last person 3 years to mess up. Or the previous employee was expected to correct the matter in a year or 2. Or they only pick the black manager or director for the position when no one else wants it, or they have tried everyone else and no one has performed well.
Just look at President Obama as an example. Yeap thats how it is for black folks when they are in leadership roles.
Now are far as Mcnabb it could be a few things. Maybe Reid wanted him to get an extension and Banner didn’t want to give it or Mcnabb didn’t want to sign it.
Maybe this is a way for Mcnabb to leave without demanding a trade and messing up his image. Maybe lurie wants to get rid of Mcnabb and his large salary. Lurie has always been cheap……..mcnabb has helped Lurie make a lot of money the last decade and the eagles are worth far more now then what they were when Mcnabb first got there. So Mcnabb helping the eagles go to all those playoff games has really helped the worth of the team.
Or maybe Reid, Banner and Lurie will let Mcnabb play out his contract as a gift for all the years of service, letting him walk and go to a team that he can win with.
Who knows the stuff is actually sad. Cause we all know that when Kolb eventually takes over the play calling and offensive help will be better.
Yet no one will point out the differences between how everything was when Mcnabb was there.
Mizzo I agree.
It is the last position that whites have a claim on. If half the starting QBs in the league are black it will change how the league is viewed by fans and the media.
Could you imagine if 2 black QBs played each other in the superbowl.
See the NFL has the perfect hustle. Have a few black QBs but have them on crappy teams. Or on teams with very few weapons and you won’t have to worry about them winning rings or setting records. Now they can make it far with their indiviual talents. But it will take a superhuman effort to win it all.
So no complaint because black QBs are getting opportunity. But getting an opportunity doesn’t mean its a fair one.
And like James Harris said back in the day about how black QB are given a chance and a N-word chance. Most black QBs have gotten the latter.
I like you Mizzo am so sick of these dudes going to crappy teams having to run around like some animals for years. Then when their mobility leaves the team and the fans feel that it time to dump them.
I mean how many times this past decade did we have to see a black QB throwing to some washed up WR???
I swear IMO the only reason that the Eagles TO was because they were throwing a bone to Mcnabb for getting to 3 straight conf. championships. Its like here you go boy for getting us to all these conf. games.
And the only reason they got him McCoy and Maclin was because he got to the Conf. Championship game with Desean and that slot WR Kevin Curtis.
Anyway I have to give it to Mcnabb. The fact he has been able to win and put up stats like that is amazing. To do all of that in the face of a fanbase that doesn’t want you. A team that doesn’t want to win and basically refused to give you help for years. All while playing a position that folks don’t like black folks to play and in a city with a local media that hates everyone.
Damn I mean thats really amazing.
I don’t with y’all about the QBs of certain teams getting wide receivers. I think the argument is more complex than that, but either way, the Bengals are not a good example.
Certain teams get certain types of receivers, but lets be clear that Chad JOHNSON and T.J. Houshmandzadeh were NOT drafted to play with Carson Palmer. They were drafted to play with Akili Smith. If you go back to Jeff Blake, he had Carl Pickens and Darnay Scott.
I don’t think Jacksonville is a good example either. In addition to selecting Leftwich and Garrard, they’ve used high draft picks on receivers like R.J. Soward, Reggie Williams and Matt Jones. They even brought in a professional like Torry Holt. Garrard’s problem has been the health of the line and the loss of Marcus Stroud and Mike Peterson and others on defense. Mike Sims-Walker has emerged as a very talented receiver this season.
You might say the Titans are a good example, but they did draft Derrick Mason, Kevin Dyson, and Kenny Britt. They signed Nate Washington and Yancy Thigpen from the Steelers. They’ve always had very good pass catching tight ends — Wychek, Scaife, etc.
Aaron Brooks had tons of talent around him in New Orleans. The defense was mediocre at best, but the offense could move it. Horn, Stallworth, McAllister, Boo Williams!!
As for Josh Freeman, what more could he ask for? He has Kellen Winslow, Jr. He was on fire at the beginning of the season. Antonio Bryant has to get healthy, but the Bucs have several big receivers who can get deep. And, he has Cadillac and Derrick Ward. That team hired a new OC and changed QBs twice in about 8 weeks this season…and they still beat New Orleans and Green Bay.
Even Charlie Batch played with talented offensive players in Detroit. Remember that receiver Germane Crowell? 80 catches and about to BREAK OUT…then BAM! Injured. Herman Moore, Johnny Morton…James Stewart.
And we don’t even need to talk about the talent that surrounded Daunte Culpepper in Minnesota.
I think the offensive instability of teams (changing coaches, changing coordinators, wavering support for the QB, extensive media scrutiny, etc.) is a much bigger factor than the absence of quality wide receivers.
Did I forget to say “agree.” Sorry about that!
Origin:
Just an opinion, but…
McNabb’s situation does not appear to be the same as it is for every Black QB in the league. Like I said before, say what you will about the Eagles signings, they’ve spent 3 number high draft picks (Mitchell, Jackson, Maclin), brought in high-performing free agents (Owens, Stallworth, Curtis), brought in possession receivers and always had a pass-catching tight end (Chad Lewis, LJ Smith, Brent Celek).
On the real, a lot of QB wish they played with that type of talent. The Eagles are not crossing the Rubicon until they master 2nd and short and 3rd and short. That’s gonna require some cash to be paid to a pile moving running back. He doesn’t have to be a 300 carry lead back. He just has to move the chains when called upon. That’s the conversation folks in Philly seem to be avoiding by talking about receivers and McNabb as if either of them are to blame for the many years of the team coming up short. The team runs a finesse offense. That bullshit doesn’t work.
It’s time for folks to snap out of it and focus on the real reason why the team continues to lose. Being cute with little guys like Charlie Garner and Duce Staley and Brian Westbrook is not going to get it. Stop the madness and man up in the trenches…then folks can complain about the wideouts all day long.
I don’t agree with you brotha. This offense is predicated on receivers getting open. The running back contributes to the offense, he’s not the main cog.
The West Coast offense is a sum of its parts just like every other offense, but the receivers must catch the ball and also must run precise routes. No one here has done that of all the guys you named except for two receivers who played a total of four years here.
You brought up a bunch of stop gap receivers (outside of Stallworth) and if you lived here you would know the receivers they drafted weren’t the best on the board. For all the receivers you think were good talents, I can give you James Thrash, Todd Pinkston and Greg Lewis.
Go back to the Freddie Mitchell draft and you’ll see the receiver most intelligent fans in the city wanted still on the board. These are obvious personnel decisions that were slept on.
McNabb had route runners at Syracuse and in a perfect west coast offense world, that’s what you need for this offense to thrive seamlessly. The quick slant made Jerry Rice one of the best football players ever.
I want a guy who can break off the line like that….and even cross the middle without thinking his balls are gonna fall off if he takes a big time hit (not comparing Jerry Rice to anyone, I mean a physical threat with a head on his shoulders).
I give you Dante Stallworth. You also bring up the Titans but wasn’t Dyson taken over Moss? They sure wish they had those six inches back don’t they?
Kevin Curtis was a stop gap. He was the last free agent receiver out there. What has he done in Philly inside of a talented offense but miss a 4th down catch in Arizona that most likely would have put the Eagles in position to score at the Cardinals 25 with just under 1:25 on the clock.
Listen brotha, I’m not talking about getting capable receivers in the draft. I’m talking about going out and getting an Anquan Boldin or a Tony Gonzalez when they are available and you know your team is right there and they are available.
You are talking about evaluating collegiate talent, I’m speaking of veteran leadership in the fourth quarter late in the playoffs. I don’t care how fast you run or how great you catch. Are you going to move the crowd with money on the clock and lead your team to the pinnacle?
i don’t know what team you are seeing out there, but Donovan McNabb has not had typical receiving talent comparable to his skill set. There’s no way. He didn’t come into the league with a Hines Ward already in place or get to ball out with a Santonio Holmes. He had to wait 5 seasons and 3 NFC Championship games before he had a receiver a woman can name (no disrespect ladies).
You know what I mean by that. I hear what you are saying brotha, but you act as if this organization has done its part in supporting a potential top five statistical qb his entire career.
It’s simple respect.
If you think he’s received the standard then it wouldn’t be obvious to cats in the local bars, hanging on the corner or sitting next to you on a plane.
This is something the qb here has said his entire career. Don’t you think he knows what he needs?
Two things:
1) Who is the receiver that Philly fans wanted over Freddie Mitchell? Please don’t say it was Steve Smith or Chad! If you say Reggie Wayne, ok fine…I’ll give you that, but please remember that Reggie Wayne was considered a BUST until about his 3rd season…and that was with Manning and Marvin Harrison.
2) The larger point that I was making about Black QBs still stands. And we know that Dyson wasn’t selected over Moss for questions of talent. If it was strictly about talent, Moss would’ve been the first WR selected. The issue was “character” and those concerns were not unfounded…but they were probably overstated. Either way, Moss spent most of his playing days with Black QBs…so, it only reinforces my position.
My smaller point (made previously…not restated today) is actually that McNabb has had less talent (over the course of his career) than many other QBs…and that the talent that he has NOW is the envy of many around the league — but that he still needs a power running back. I don’t think we disagree on that. Most QBs around the league simply do not have the offensive options that the Eagles have right now. The Bengals don’t. The Seahawks don’t. Talked about tired retreads — last year, they had Burleson and Branch. The Bears don’t.
I think the whole McNabb-WR controversy is a red herring. When your team is forced to get rushing yards from a fullback in the post-season, you can’t be surprised when he fumbles. That’s what fullbacks do. Mike Alstott did it. That’s why Tampa went out and got Michael Pittman. Not to dominate and carry 300 times, but to convert 2nd and short and 3rd and short. In Philly, a team that has steadfastly refused to do this very simple thing has an entire city spinning in a discussion about the resources they provide to Donovan McNabb.
Even when this team had Terrell Owens in a Super Bowl, McNabb was forced to throw the ball 45+ times and was exhausted. If they had a player like Corey Dillon, it would have been a different ball game. Jackson, Maclin, Avant, and Celek are good enough to win a Super Bowl, but you’ve gotta get someone to tote in the trenches.
4 of the past 6 years, the Eagles have been 20th or worse in rushing first downs. So, who are the running backs they’ve passed on since then??
2004: Stephen Jackson (Eagles selection: Shawn Andrews)
2005: Frank Gore (Eagles selection: Matt McCoy)
2006: Maurice Jones-Drew (Eagles selection: Winston Justice)
So, like I said, I think the whole McNabb-WR question is one big huge distraction. The Philadelphia white supremacists are trying to keep the Africans on the run by compelling folks to defend McNabb AND throw the receivers under the bus, while management escapes Dred Scott free and continues to pass up quality running back after quality running back after quality running back.
Cute and cuddly running backs are not the answer. And, just remember where Kurt Warner was throwing the ball when he pissed away the Super Bowl 2 years ago. Boldin never caught that ball. Harrison jumped into history because he outfoxed a finesse offense. If the Eagles want to turn the tide, they’ll get off the “Fred X F’d Us” business and get real about all of these very solid runners that the Eagles continue to ignore.
Do you REALLY think the Eagles would not have already won a Super Bowl with Stephen Jackson or Gore?
We don’t disagree and yes Reggie Wayne and to a lesser extent Chad Johnson was that dude.
I spoke of how Moss’ transgressions were overblown here. If one is to generalize my writings on the basis that I’m locked stock in my defense of Blacks within the politics of journalism…so be it. I speak for the future so that my sons will feel comfort in what is the truth outside of politics.
But…you miss my point about veteran late game leadership at the receiver position.
Let’s address that. Your point on a power back is well taken. I’ve never disagreed but are we talking about a league where a step equals six in a passing offense or are we taking about receivers getting tackled before the sticks?
Brotha you weren’t here when the clowns they had running patterns here were beat up by the Carolina Manning or dropping passes vs Tampa Bay in the last game at the Vet. All I want is someone who will catch the damn ball with the game on the g’damn line. Period.
I defend 5 not because of the organization, I defend 5 because of his importance to the next generation. Joe Gilliam and James Harris were not defended by the Black press because there was always something the mainstream could hold on to in terms of scrutiny.
I can’t let that happen with Donovan. I bet if you broadcast his stats in every piece written, his perception would be reevaluated.
The Eagles are who we thought they were.
I agree with your point about late game leadership to an extent. I didn’t explicitly acknowledge it, but I didn’t miss it. I have reservations.
Who were the “veteran receivers” on the Saints? Jeremy Shockey? Would you rather have him or Celek?
Your position all year was that the Saints were an untested bunch who hadn’t done anything. Yet, they managed to get it done — and I think it was because of their balance. They wouldn’t have done it without Pierre Thomas and others running for tough yards and keeping pressure off of Drew Brees. Colston — 7th round pick. Henderson — fast, but inconsistent. Meachem — young, very young. Lance Moore — injured all season.
I heard McNabb’s point about youth, but on the real — do you think that matters if Stephen Jackson is getting 25 carries a game and bludgeoning the defense to death for the 4th quarter. The Eagles are a FINESSE team on both sides of the ball. They don’t wear down the defense or the offense late in games.
If they had Jackson or Gore, those young wide receivers wouldn’t have been susceptible to double coverage for an entire game. In the 4th quarter, teams play the Eagles and feel fresh — they’re ready to play another game.
Gonzalez has no rings. Boldin has no rings. Gonzalez needed Michael Turner to move Atlanta forward. Once Turner went down, the season was over. Boldin won’t get a ring if Ray Rice gets injured. Honestly, the mere sight of Leonard Weaver fumbling should have ignited a chorus in Philly wondering how the team passed on Jackson, Gore and Jones-Drew. Its not a question in Philly. I never hear those names mentioned in discussions about the post-season shortcomings of the team. The conversation is still nebulous and generic. It lacks specificity and a call to account. Reid should run more — but with WHOM?!?
What’s the score of the Eagles – Cowboys playoff game if Philly has Stephen Jackson?
And, I’m done…
Brotha. Don’t you understand we’re pass that here? Don’t you understand how pissed off we were when Duce didn’t get the ball late against Carolina?
You speak as if this was never addressed by the fanbase. Of course we want a big back. Of course we want someone who is going to move the chains late in games. Of course we want balance.
I could care less if Donovan never threw another pass again in the NFL as long as Philly wins a ring. This ain’t about stats. I thought you could see the depth of my words. I’m past all what you speak of.
Of course I want to run the ball. Look through my Eagles game reports. In one and I’m not sure what game, I break down the Eagles record based on rushing attempts or as you say BALANCE.
I won’t get raw here and say my true feelings on finesse offenses. All of them go the way of the Phoenix Suns. I won’t get further into that.
My point in all this is brothaman is that when there is a free agent on the board whose skill set will put you where you need to be…GO GET HIM.
I don’t care who it is. I don’t care what he has done. I don’t care what team or locker room he has faded. All of that is a bunch of media generated BS anyway.
Because the Eagles have become a passing team, put the parts in place to do that.
Drew Brees has a million people to throw and hand off to. If you think the Eagles are as talented on offense as the Saints, that’s simply incredible.
I compare my teams and players to the game…not the league. I want the Eagles to take more risks regarding free agents ala New England. What’s wrong with that. Be a Jerry West in the game.
Please.
I only emphasized the running back situation to contrast it with the ongoing focus on McNabb. If you’re suggesting that folks in Philly are as amped/agitated/pissed about the running back situation as they are about the McNabb/WR situation, then I’ve missed that. 9 times out of 10, the volume coming out of Philly that makes its way to New York is about McNabb.
As I’ve said, I have never ever heard someone in Philly complain that the Eagles didn’t draft Jackson or Gore…not once. If you’ve said it, I’m all ears. So, I know the die hards have dissected the team from top to bottom — its what we do. But if that’s the case, perhaps you all need to wrest control of the argument from those who would have it be about McNabb.
I feel you when you talk about those acquisitions. I know you feel like you’ve got to go and get that guy — but that doesn’t track well with the teams who have won Super Bowls for the past 10 years. Only the Giants rolled to the Super Bowl on the back of a free agent wide receiver — and you know that they rolled with a power running troika.
Pats haven’t won with Moss. Eagles and Cowboys didn’t win with Owens. Raiders didn’t win with Rice and Brown. Cardinals didn’t win with Boldin and Fitzgerald. (I’m more than willing to concede how important Shannon Sharpe was for the 2000 Ravens, but they had Jamal Lewis AND Priest Holmes….and that’s my point.)
I don’t believe I said the Eagles were as talented offensively as the Saints. And, I’d suggest that the biggest differences between those teams are in the running game and in Brees’ accuracy/timing…but that’s another discussion. The point I was making was that the Saints didn’t win because they had experienced pass receivers. If you give McNabb a receiver like Marques Colston, but a broken down Westbrook, do the Eagles win the Super Bowl? Probably not — in my opinion. If you just add Reggie Bush, do the Eagles win? Probably not — in my opinion…but if you add Pierre Thomas and Bush and Colston, now you’re talking!
The last time the Patriots won a Super Bowl, they had the capacity to run on 2nd and 3rd and short with Corey Dillon. Since that time, they’ve won nothing on consequence. In fact, Tom Brady looked a lot like McNabb at the end of his Super Bowl loss vs. the Giants. He was chased all day…hit from a thousand different angles…and his team never mounted a ground attack — and they lost. They added Moss…no rings and the clock is ticking on that relationship. Welker? Nice stats…no hardware.
When Philly fans direct all the venom that has been hurled at McNabb and his receivers at the owner for failing to take guys like Jackson, Gore and MJD, they’ll be on to something. As I said up top, if that’s really what folks are kicking in the bars and in the barber shops, I’ve totally missed it…that story simply isn’t getting outside of the city.
Temple I can’t speak for Mizzo.
But my point has always been the lack of complete help and support Black QBs get.
Whether its lack of an OL, big Back, WRs or being in 500 million different offensive systems every freaking year. Or my favorite getting a year and a half to perform at probowl level or get benched.
They often times have to do more with less. Or take the jobs no one else wants.
Anyway I have been beating the drum for a lack of a running game with Mcnabb for years.
I am the one who said he wouldn’t win a superbowl in 2004 even after they got TO. The reason was that they passed over Steven Jackson for a freaking OL with a bad back.
They passed over julius Jones. They passed over countless free agent RBs.
Yes I believe a combo of Jones and Westbrook….along with TO could have won a superbowl. If and I mean if Reid would have ran the ball.
I said it before and I will say it again. Reid, Lurie and Banner sealed Mcnabb’s fate when they didn’t draft Steven Jackson or Julius Jones.
As far as the hate by the fans and media being aimed at the owners. I mean in the NFL when are owners ever called out by the fans and media? Except Al Davis.
In the NFL the players are always the scapegoat. You have a cash cow league where foolish fans will still pack games and support teams owned by crappy owners who have no interest in winning.
But what we have here is a cheap owner in a city that supports their football team (like most cities). We have a owner who lucked up in getting a great QB who could at times carry his team with few weapons to the playoffs and conference championships.
In seeing this the owner had no reason to spend money to give his WR the support needed. I mean why when you are going to get to the playoffs being 20 mill under the cap almost every year.
At the same time we have a black QB whos mobility not only helped him get drafted high but also was the reason he was named a starter. And the reason he was able to take a team with so little talent on offense to the playoffs year end and year out. His mobility helping to attain following and notoriety for his team and self all along helping build wealth in the eagles franchise while at the same time helping Lurie’s pockets get fatter and fatter. Many times his mobility accounted for the teams lack of a running game, poor playcalling, poor offensive talent evaluation & development and poor game management from the head coach.
The sad part in all of this is if Mcnabb was less mobile the team would have never made it to so many playoff games. And Mcnabb would have been benched for his white backup. Forever tossed on the scrap heap and blamed for not putting up stats and winning with trash WRs and no running game. Used as an excuse to never drafting a black QB that high. If he ever was even drafted that high being a not so mobile black QB.
I still stick by what I said. If he were White the fans and media would have demanded that he had help……….and he would have gotten it. He would have never been asked to pass so much after coming off of knee surgery…..getting sacked over and over again in that giants game. The offense would have been much more balanced and he would have been protected more by the refs, just like his white superstar peers.
Anyway brothas Mizzo and Temple…..I am done talking about this. There are bigger fish to fry, I am keeping an eye on what is going done in Pittsburg and how Mr. Goodell handles this little fire thats going on that everyone wants to ignore.
Origin:
I think that we agree on many aspects of this…but there are nuances to the argument. For example, McNair played with Eddie George and Frank Wychek. Vick played with a powerful rushing offense. Cunningham had Robert Smith. Warren Moon played with Lorenzo White. Brooks had McAllister. Jeff Blake had Garrison Hearst and Ki-Jana Carter. So, you can take the argument a number of ways. Where we definitely agree is on the question of ownership support, fan scrutiny, and systemic instability.
There have been a few guys who actually played in strong offensive systems: Moon, Cunningham, Culpepper, Stewart under Chan Gailey, Brooks and McNabb (recently). I think if Josh Freeman stays in that system with Winslow and Williams (and a healthy Antonio Bryant), they will do some surprising things.
There are a few teams where the owners were routinely skewered by the fans AND the local media: New Orleans, the Jets, Detroit, and Arizona. For years the focus has been on inept ownership as much as it has been on the players. When Barry Sanders played in Detroit, the fans knew the franchise wouldn’t spend those extra dollars to surround him with a great offensive line and a defense. Arizona, New Orleans and the Jets only recently began to make quality acquisitions. Still, the names of William Clay Ford, Bill Bidwell, and the Hess Family were synonymous with Ted Stepien and others who had little to no interest in winning.
Temple of all the teams you named with he exception of the Titans, which had even a five year span of success?
None of those teams had balance except for 98 and we all know why that team didn’t win it all.
Name one Black quarterback supported strongly by free agency. Building a strong foundation early in his career and sustaining growth.
Is McNabb the only one? Ever?
When owners realize their athletic/mental/leadership worth early in the game things will change.
Josh Freeman is the second Black quarterback to begin his career with a Black head coach.
His will be an interesting study as long as TB sticks to the script and Morris does whatever it takes to keep his job.
Mizzo:
Teams with a five-year span of success? I guess we’ll have to agree on terms. But for the sake of argument, let’s say teams that are contenders for playoff spots and who also outperform the previous regime.
1) New Orleans Saints (Jeff Blake and Aaron Brooks) 2000-2005: In 2000, Blake and Brooks took a 3-13 to 10-6 and a division crown. Over the next few years, Brooks threw for tons of yards, but the team was only moderately successful winning between 7 and 9 games each season. You know who they had on that offense…no need to recap here. OFFENSIVE BALANCE — EXHIBIT A: 2000 SAINTS — 497 passes, 505 rushes. (I’m not going to do all the heavy lifting here. If you’re going to dispute that a team with Deuce McAllister and Joe Horn was either pass heavy or run heavy, knock yourself out.)
2) Atlanta Falcons (Michael Vick) 2002-2006: The year before Michael Vick, the Falcons won 7 games and were 23rd in scoring. Vick’s first season, they won 9 games and were 5th in scoring. They went to the playoffs and beat Green Bay in Lambeau. Vick was injured one season and ATL won 5 games. A 9-win season, an 11-win season, and an 8-8 season for a perennial loser…not bad. Chris Chandler went to a Super Bowl, but…
No question this team was not balanced. Still, this team, perhaps more than any other, ruins your FREE AGENT SUPPORT argument. Peerless Price was brought in to provide that balance. The Falcons paid the price, but it didn’t work.
3) Houston Oilers (Warren Moon) 1987-1993: This Oiler squad was one of the best teams (on both sides of the ball) that I’ve ever seen NOT make a Super Bowl. Wins during the span: 9, 10, 9, 9, 11, 10, 12. 7 consecutive playoff appearances. Pass dominant team, but they ran very well with White when he was healthy — and less well with Allen Pinkett.
4) Pittsburgh Steelers (Kordell Stewart) 1997-2001: Kordell won 11 his first season and 13 in his 5th. He went to the Pro Bowl…and he did this playing with a different offensive coordinator in almost every single season. Run dominant, but they used a spread offense as well.
5) Jacksonville Jaguars* (Leftwich and Garrard) 2004-2007: It was 4 years in this case, but in the fifth year, most of the offensive line was knocked out for the season. During the 4 year run, the Jags made the playoffs twice, won 9, 12, 8, and 11 games — and also beat the Steelers TWICE in Pittsburgh at the end of the season and in the playoffs. Run dominant, play action passing team, BUT, in 2007, the Jags were 6th in offense and had 469 passes vs. 522 rushes. That’s a balanced team.
I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point.
I’ve already stated that I don’t believe that teams support Black QBs in many of the ways that are required for long-term success. I specifically mentioned franchise instability, coaching, offensive coordinator changes, etc. The only place where I part company with the group is on the question of wide receivers. And, so far, no one has said much to controvert my position.
The acquisition of free agent wide receivers was the issue at hand for the Eagles, but I submit that the fan base continues to miss the point. Admittedly, the team had the worst receivers I’ve ever seen in my life for years. Pinkston and Thrash (or Trash) had no business on that team. But, when you talk about franchise support, you have to honor the fact that high draft picks and free agent acquisitions carry similar weight. The Eagles have brought in 3 high-quality free agent wide receivers. Terrell Owens, Donte Stallworth and Kevin Curtis. I put Curtis in that mix because of his production as a healthy player: 77 catches and 1100 yards. I’m not arguing he is as good as Owens, obviously, but his production when healthy was EXCELLENT! Clearly the Eagles have also invested in high draft picks at the WR position in recent years. Mitchell, Brown, Jackson and Maclin were all highly touted and productive players at the collegiate level. None was considered a “reach” on draft day.
So, just because your team can’t draft for shit doesn’t mean the owners haven’t made an investment. You need new player personnel people. Thankfully, the top dog left for Cleveland.
“Name one Black quarterback supported strongly by free agency. Building a strong foundation early in his career and sustaining growth.”
You might as well as me to name one Black quarterback with a gardener named Joe who was hired on Tuesday by a New York City-based employment agency to work in Milledgeville from August through December.
If you really want to discuss narrow criteria, I’m not playing that game. I’ve simply said that if folks want to argue that Black QBs don’t have good receivers, I need more evidence because what’s out there simply isn’t compelling.
Where are all of the big free agent acquisitions of the Indianapolis Colts? Steelers? Chargers? Not everyone builds that way — but it doesn’t preclude them from building formidable offensive teams.
At this point, I’m not sure what you’re arguing. I know what you are saying, but I’m not sure what you’re arguing.
1) We agree that McNabb was surrounded by scrubs.
2) We agree that teams don’t provide comprehensive support for Black QBs.
I believe that many Black QBs have very good wide receivers at their disposal. I also believe that commitment to the acquisition of talent can be measured in more than free agency. The draft has to count for something, especially if that is the franchise’s preferred method.
At the end of the day, I don’t believe there is a receiver in the league that could do more for the Eagles than Stephen Jackson or Frank Gore or MJD…and Philadelphia had the CHANCE to have each one of them — and they passed (literally and figuratively) and now they’re stuck trying to make an incremental improvement on an EXTREMELY talented wide receiver pool.
No no no no no. Kevin Curtis was the last free agent on the board fam. What has he done here?!?!? Please tell me. Please.
Terrell Owens and Dante Stallworth take us to the Super Bowl and Donovan throws for a career high 64.5?
If you think we haven’t made a point that’s on you, but fam I live in Philly. I see what ails them every damn season. We’ve been screaming for a big back for years. My point is the minute the Eagles go after the golden goose, they go to the Super Bowl. You can deny that or smack it with arbitrary stats or whatever but the facts remain.
See this is the reason why I don’t like stats because they convo gets muddied when they become applied science.
Your point about Thrash and the rest proves our point as well because those years were prime years in 5′s career. His comfort zone would have been much different and thus his relationship with the press.
No one here said anything negative about Donovan in 2004. There wasn’t one negative piece if I remember. That’s how it should have been his entire career.
I don’t see why you don’t get that. The teams you mentioned had moderate success (Kordel didn’t get national credit from my peers for the Steelers) and forgive me for combining the Titans/Oilers. I should have explained that.
Don’t you find it incredible that only 5 has been allowed to play with one team?
There’s always something that arises and the organizations ultimately throw their hands up. This is the depth of what I speak.
I want organizations to support young Black quarterbacks from the gate with receiving talent that will allow them to work in comfort. Josh Freeman has it. Vince Young has it. JaMarcus needs to get to film study like last 15 years ago because he sucks.
Temple, I navigate through this business. I see and talk to front office people. I see the dumbfounded looks in some of their eyes. I sit front row in press conferences.
The look is very much different than when I was a fan. I’ve had many eye opening moments. Everything is not what it seems fam. I’ll be quiet now.
What if the Falcons went after top tier receiving talent instead of the likes of Peerless Price (irony) when Vick and the gang were monster on the ground?
Full out? When you have a talented Black quarterback, throw the damn house on your team. Trust him. He will lead you to a championship if you just trust him instead of falling for all the bull crap.
Temple if you don’t see the soap operas that have played out over the years with Black quarterbacks then I don’t know what to tell you. For the most part, these situations had nothing to do with what happened on the field (I’m not talking about Vick but he did catch major wreck after that contract was signed).
Just get sick of the bs man. I want to see ONE organization go all out and then I’ll shut up.
Ok…enough of this…
Mizzo…
I don’t you need to be quiet — because we fundamentally agree about the front office paradigm for Black QBs. Bottom line, if folks disagree with me, go through the rosters like I did and dispute what I’m arguing. I haven’t suggested anything that is a reach…its all pretty basic stuff.
It doesn’t matter if Curtis was the last free agent on the board. I already told you what he did. When he was healthy, he went for 77, 1100 and 6. If that’s good enough, too damn bad. You’re just not going to get much better production than that from anyone. He’s been injured since then. If you can defend an injured McNabb, you should be able to defend an injured Curtis. What more do you want him to do, other than stay on the field?
Why are the stats I provided any more arbitrary than the criteria you set to generate those stats? You wanted successful teams who had nice runs — I showed you that. You wanted to see balance — I demonstrated that. You wanted to see teams that build great offenses for white QBs without free agents — I showed you that. You wanted to see a Super Bowl team with inexperienced receivers — I showed you that. You wanted to see a Super Bowl team with low draft picks at WR (Collie, Garcon) — I showed you that.
I think, though, that I’ve found the crux of the confusion.
You wrote: “My point is the minute the Eagles go after the golden goose, they go to the Super Bowl. You can deny that or smack it with arbitrary stats or whatever but the facts remain.”
That’s it in a nutshell. My aspiration for the Steelers is never to merely GET TO the Super Bowl…its to win the damn thing. That’s why I’ve never wanted Pittsburgh to chase the Golden Goose. Remember when the question was asked about trading Santonio Holmes for Brandon Marshall. I said no thanks, and so did most of the Steelers fans who roll with TSF.
Mizzo — you simply cannot hate on STATS after asking for them. You said, show me one team that has had a five year run. I showed you five teams. You can’t have it both ways bruh.
What you’re doing now is conflating media and public perception of Black folk with the actual performance of those players. This is where we part company. I don’t give a damn about white folks in the media or the public and their perceptions of our work. That is why I was able to provide you with FIVE TEAMS who had success with Black quarterbacks…and there isn’t a sports journalist in America that is black, pink, purple or white who could have given you those same teams.
Those quarterbacks did outstanding jobs during those runs. Most didn’t turn the ball over. They were accurate. They threw great deep balls and they won a lot of games. They made the playoffs and generally out-performed their predecessors. To seek to minimize the success of teams that won 10+ games in this league is unfair — but you’re doing it and I’m not sure why. “Moderate success” — okay. It’s more than most.
You wrote: “Your point about Thrash and the rest proves our point as well because those years were prime years in 5’s career. His comfort zone would have been much different and thus his relationship with the press.” I’m not talking about McNabb and the press. I’m not arguing that he had support. I’m just not getting you here. If your bottom line is that the media is biased, that’s a given and has nothing to do with what I’ve been saying.
You wrote: “Don’t you find it incredible that only 5 has been allowed to play with one team?” It’s interesting. I haven’t given it a lot of thought, but the bottom line is that McNabb is a G. You’re not gonna sign a BETTER QB. You can’t IMPROVE by trading him for another guy (to me). And the Eagles win every season — so even with all the clamoring, the Eagles have shown they’re not as stupid as the Pittsburgh Pirates who haven’t had a winning season since Bonds left.
You wrote: “I want organizations to support young Black quarterbacks from the gate with receiving talent that will allow them to work in comfort. Josh Freeman has it. Vince Young has it. JaMarcus needs to get to film study like last 15 years ago because he sucks.” This is significant. You can’t say that teams in the NFL never do it, then acknowledge that a measure of support exists in Tampa and Tennessee. And if Russell was ready, he’d find that he had more than enough talent in Darren McFadden, Michael Bush, Justin Fargas, Chas Schillens, Zack Miller and all those other cats.
————-
I meant to say, “I don’t think you need to be quiet.”
Mizzo:
Now you’re engaging in what is called “Revisionist History.” Who should the Falcons have gone after — that was available? The list of guys with more catches than Price that season were Marvin Harrison, Hines Ward, Randy Moss, Eric Moulds, Terrell Owens, Marty Booker and Troy Brown. Brown was 31 and never had another great season. Booker wasn’t available and never had another great season. Owens wasn’t available — neither were Harrison, Ward, Moulds or Moss. So, who was this top flight receiver that the Falcons should have KNOWN to get and value ahead of a 26-year old receiver from UT having a break out season?
You are looking back at Peerless Price as if he was SUPPOSED TO SUCK! He was considered an elite talent from a university that produced loads of NFL quality receivers. Price had a 94 catch season before going to Atlanta. Was he a bum? Stop the madness. He may have got caught up in Magic City and living the life, but from a talent perspective, he was expected to perform just like other UT guys like Carl Pcikens and Anthony Miller.
What if Mike had left that stupid shit alone and was able to play with Roddy White and Harry Douglas? Then, what?
Price came in 2003. In 2004, the Falcons went to another tradition-rich school to draft a wide receiver in the first round — Michael Jenkins. What were they SUPPOSED to do? In 2005, they drafted Roddy White. For my money, the problem in ATL wasn’t the RECEIVERS, it was the coaching systems. Neither Reeves nor Mora were capable of maximizing MV7′s gifts. I’m not going to dump on ATL for the receivers they signed…that wasn’t the problem. I will dump on them for the coaches (bargain basement retreads?) and the myriad offensive systems that were not aligned to support Vick — and those are different issues.
You wrote: “Temple if you don’t see the soap operas that have played out over the years with Black quarterbacks then I don’t know what to tell you.”
The soap opera is generally not demonstrated at the level of wide receiver quality. It’s at a higher level than that. Its being saddled with inferior coaches or multiple coordinators or mismatched systems…and many other things.
McNabb’s experience, as I showed in discussing Blake, Brooks, Vick, Young, Leftwich, Garrard, Stewart, Moon and others is NOT universal. He had had coaching stability and has run the same offensive system for years. If he should compared with anyone, its Peyton Manning. And the legacy of the Colts at WR has been built through the DRAFT — not free agency.
Sports Illustrated on Peerless Price in 2003:
“PEERLESS PRICE — ALL IN A NAME: Atlanta’s price for acquiring its dangerous wideout was a first-round draft choice — and a seven-year, $37.5 million contract that included a $10.5 million signing bonus. The Falcons aren’t expecting Price, acquired in a trade with the Bills in March, to be peerless, but they’d settle for something close to that.
“Peerless is up there with Terrell Owens and Isaac Bruce as a premier receiver,” Falcons cornerback Ray Buchanan says. “He runs way better routes than Randy Moss. The guy has these large-ass hands that catch everything; he’s unbelievable.”
Temple I’m past everything you write on that level. You might not care about how we are viewed by the press but I do for history.
That’s all I care about man. I want young Black men who may not have a certain educational base to see the faces of our soul and model their games after so nuances are advanced.
If we do not write it it will not be written. How many times have I written this?
I want more from my peers everything else is secondary…even athletic production.
Mizzo:
You have to do what works best for you. Its more about the creation than the reaction. The media works overtime to undo our greatest works and that’s why I rose to the challenge of answering your query about successful teams.
The media didn’t do that research — I did it. And that’s the point. We make our own reality by digging in the crates, by grinding, by hustling, by doing the right thing. And I am not among the feeble minded who can be led by the press.
If the question is put to me about the successful Black QBs of the last 20 years, I’ll have an answer for my children. I’ll be able to tell them in gross detail who did what and how — because the legacy matters. But I don’t play the SURRENDER GAME. I don’t buy that these cats were all mediocre and had only moderate success. I reject that notion out of hand. These guys were pioneers in many respects. They were the first group to come through in large numbers and the first group to come as high draft picks. We have to be able to tell their story accurately — and not through a fabricated lens that suggests they were all saddled with scrubs OR that they were mere tokens isolated from the best WR performers of their era. That’s simply not true.
We are not always the victim. Sometimes, we are the victors. The deck may be stacked against that recurring too frequently, but it is inevitable. Moments in the sun, like chances, do go ’round.
Maybe I just have a lot of faith in our folks. I don’t recall having conversations with impressionable young black folk who drank the Kool-Aid and thought the the media’s Larry Bird was better than Magic Johnson. Never had a chat with someone who thought Andy Van Slyke was better than Bonds. Still haven’t met any old school black folk who thought Mickey Mantle was better than Willie Mays. Our folks, to my mind, are much more thoughtful and resilient than that.
I know you’re fighting the good fight — I’m simply saying that refuting the enemy is but one part of life. Sometimes, its worthwhile to bask in the glory of YOU!
Correct sir. All of it.
You have to understand the field. A field where Black writers become ghetto Black cops…overcompensating their wares to the point of excoriating their sons in the company of bad intentioned strangers.
The generations next subsequently seek out what pays the bills and as a result, history becomes a distorted mass of cadillac grills while the blood of Black legacy spills until someone years later applies a teaching moment tourniquet.
a teaching moment tourniquet…
that’s a rough pen you have.