Manny Pacquiao V. Floyd Mayweather. And Why It Now Has To Happen.

We all knew that it was going to have to happen. We went through the national semifinals (Pacquiao v. Margarito and Mayweather vs. Mosley) and now we’re here, where we were the last time that this went on. Everyone’s clamoring for it. We can’t possibly not get it again can we? More after the jump.

The truth is that yes, we can. There are a variety of reasons why it won’t happen.


Firstly, let us all disabuse ourselves of the notion that Mayweather and\or Pacquiao need this fight. They don’t. Floyd can make just as much money with far less risk by hunting down a multitude of guys. (Timothy Bradley and Devon Alexander better have their phone bills paid up.)

Pacquiao, on the other hand, has Juan Manuel Marquez that he can go back to. And maybe even Sergio Martinez or Andre Berto. The point is that they don’t need this. Not nearly as much as we all do.


But the question about will the fight take place is not nearly as exciting as if it even SHOULD. I mean, let’s be real. We’ve all heard what passes for intelligent discourse amongst fight fans nowadays. It only gets worse for the big fights, and I for one am sick of hearing it.

Manny Pacquiao fans will gleefully point out Floyd’s legal problems, reference his father’s craziness, and go on and on with the rest of it to the point of crazed exhaustion. In response, the Mayweather fans will return fire with Pacquiao’s handful of losses, the steroid accusations, and you’ll want to turn the internet off. Let’s be honest. The longer this goes, the worse it is going to get. So make the fight, and let us move on.

But you didn’t come here to read my haranguing about this. You came here to read a prediction for a fight that may or may not happen. So here’s that prediction.

Pacquiao and Mayweather are wildly different fighters. So this, unlike most of the fights that they have had recently, is going to be a battle for the tempo.

If Floyd wins: Simply put, he will slow everything down. That’s what he wants. Because he needs to turn Pacquiao ‘s motor off any way he can. A fight where Manny throws less punches than Floyd per round is a fight he wins. Also, he’s a brilliant counter puncher and a slower-paced fight allows him the chance to hit those sneaky right hands which can win him a comfortable decision.

If Manny Wins: The complete opposite has to happen. This will be a fight for three minutes of every round. Manny wants to push the pace and make his stamina tell the tale. Also, a fast fight with a lot of action means that Floyd’s bad hands will come into play at some point. You can’t expect to trade shots with Manny for 12 rounds and win.

So what’s my prediction? Manny by late-round knockout. It could even be a stoppage by cuts. I just can’t see how Floyd is going to handle a guy who is as quick as he is, and punches much harder.

What do you think is going to happen? Respond below in the comments. Let’s get a debate going.

45 Responses to “Manny Pacquiao V. Floyd Mayweather. And Why It Now Has To Happen.”

  1. sankofa says:

    A wrench in the machine and most peoples prediction… what if he Pacquiao takes the test? Will he take it? Why won’t he take it? What if he take it and is clean, then a more sane conversation can happen. But this minor/major matter will have to be settled before we can even predict any results.

  2. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @sankofa: because he doesn’t have to. because there hasn’t ever been a hint of a rumor before Floyd and his crew started dropping them.

    this is what I meant. I actually wrote about this. As soon as people start talking about the fight, it no longer becomes about the fight. It’s about “Is Manny on steroids or HGH or whatever else people think he’s on?” And another question: Why is he assumed to be on steroids?

  3. kos says:

    Okori –

    Great analysis of how a fight between the two of them could happen. I see the fight going to a decision with Pacquiao winning for a number of reasons. He’s more active, Floyd can’t power punch because of his hands, and quite frankly, everyone loves Pacquiao and there is a large segment of boxing fans that want to see Floyd chopped down. Also, if it goes to a decision and there is any controversy, (this is boxing we’re talking about, you know it will be) you can bet on everyone clamoring for a rematch immediately.

    I for one am still upset at Joshua Clottey for mailing in his fight against Pacquiao. “Hands of Plaster” Margarito was finished as an elite boxer the moment that Naazim Richardson, Shane Mosley’s trainer for their match, discovered that he was getting his hands wrapped with plaster.

    Floyd showed rust and maybe age in his last two fights against Marquez and Mosley. He actually was buckled by Mosley early on, but regained his form and put on the kind of show we’re used to seeing from him.

    This a fight that boxing has to have for a number of reasons. The biggest being that there is no dominant figure in the upper weight classes right now. No moneymaker for the promoters and the arenas to fill pockets of their owners. Also, it is possibly the one fight right now that would take attention away from MMA.

  4. sankofa says:

    Actually, Floyd was not the first and not the only one to question the background of the trainer. in fact a say an interview with Mike Tyson’s original trainer (forgot his name) who used the same reason beyond the steroid question. Moving up 8 weight classes without loss of power, quickness or stamina is tough. Floyd is just the biggest name to say it.

    Now this id not even remotely familiar, but as a youth I wrestled and boxed above my weight class because I was either stronger than my peers, more experienced or they needed someone in those classes with experience. Let me tell you even on my level as a youth going up on class is a big difference.

    Every boxer knows that a good big guy is better than a good small guy operative word is good. Manny went up 8 weight classes without significant weight increase with even more knock out power than ever and a better work rate.

    The media is fueling this bullshit that Floyd is the only one making noise about this.

    Kos you are right, Manny is the flavour of the month and it will dictate how the “officials” see a fight between the two. But don’t forget that Floyd is very good at tying up an aggressive fighter. Don’t let the Oscar DeLa Hoya fight fool you, because the DeLa Hoya who fought Floyd was a shell of himself when he fought Manny.

    I believe Floyd will win slowing it down, tying him up and frustrating him. If they fight.

  5. […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Okori Wadsworth, Okori Wadsworth. Okori Wadsworth said: It's Manny vs Floyd preview #3467979 […]

  6. leslie_love says:

    Mayweather is scared to get whooped. He knows manny will sweep the floor with him. He is a little boy millionaire whose time has came and went. You are not the best if you haven’t fought the best. When it comes to being a loser at life you are the best. Congrats!

  7. Okori Wadsworth says:

    I respect your opinion, Sankofa. I disagree with some of it but I respect it. However, I just had to bomb a guy out of here for nonsense about how Mayweather has never fought anyone.

    Let me make something clear: if people start talking about how one guy or the other wins in a walk, or that the other guy is overrated and no good, I will delete your comment. i get tired of hearing it, and I will not allow it to happen in this article.

  8. Burundi says:

    “Gimme the bottle! No, no, no, the one I mix!”

    That’s what Aaron Pryor’s corner man was telling a corner flunky, between rounds, as Pryor was fighting the late great Alexis Arguello. Alexis lost the fight against a guy who threw lots of punches from all over the place. Sound familiar? Boxing lost me after I watched Sweet Pea be robbed by a Draw decision against JCC and a loss against ODH (the latter I watched in a full of Latinos who began walking out swearing because they just knew Oscar lost).

    I truly hope PBF discontinues imperiling his hands and does not fight. Anyone who knows the fight game knows that he cannot win. If he could eke out a decision, they would hang a loss on him so they could sucker another fight/rematch out of him. If his hands won’t allow him to wreck shop, why do it? I hope he retires and let folk speculate. He should be like Barry Sanders. let others get it twisted as who the p4p really is.

  9. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @burundi: here is the thing tho. In the rematch, after Panama Lewis was banned for life, Pryor waxed Arguello worse.

  10. Burundi says:

    Doesn’t mean Aaron wasn’t still doped up, tho. Maybe he became a mixologist on his own. Once a cheat…

    Unfortunately, “the Sweet Science” has likewise lost any and all credibility, which is why it’s been supplanted by MMA and other such, eh, crap.

    Seriously, why fight someone whom you and others believe is doped up? Haven’t we seen enough enhanced folk of all stripes in all sports to be skeptical considering the other facts stated above regarding the moving up in weight classes sans loss of punching power? If your hands truly preclude you from competing, even if PBF’s ego says he can overcome the ‘roids, why do it and, perhaps, risk long-term injury to your hands and possibly your orbital sockets, brain, etc. ? PBF should retire while is sterling record is beyond reproach—and his tumultuous social life provides him a further out, as well, which he should take…

  11. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @Burundi: Ok. Pryor was relentless like that before the Arguello fight man. *Check his title-winning bout against Antonio Cervantes for proof of that.*

    And there is one explanation for how Manny has managed to carry his punching power from flyweight (where even unbiased observers admit he was starving himself) to welterweight. Dude has tremendous lower-body development. Your legs are where the punching power comes from.

    And if he retires without ever facing Manny Pacquiao, Burundi, his record is not beyond reproach. There is plenty of that that would go on.

    His hands don’t preclude him from competing. it just means he has had to adopt a more conservative style.

  12. Burundi says:

    As someone who has broken a thumb and had broken ribs in fights, I can assure you that if you face a relentless opponent and you cannot counter, at will, because pre-existing pain cannot be blocked out by adrenaline, you unnecessarily imperil yourself. Getting in the ring will be a recipe for disaster and I think PBF knows this. If you can only throw punches a certain way, you needlessly prolong a fight and possibly take senseless punishment waiting to throw punches just so to prevent long term damage to your fists. He has already taken all kinds of criticism for that conservative style in his last few bouts and, you and I know that they’ll make him pay for it if he’s foolish enough to get sucked in. That’s plain crazy.

    He can let folk talk all they want, if he’s smart. They can try and put asterisks next to him and say he ducked dude. But the more they seek to disparage him, what he has done will invariably speak for itself. When Pac is revealed to be on some substance he’ll look like one smart cat whose pockets are already fat. He doesn’t need the fight. Boxing may need it to get off “life support,” but he should give a news conference with the Clipse’s joint, “I’m Good!” bangin’ in the background and hold fast to retirement…

  13. […] Manny Pacquiao vs Floyd Mayweather | The Starting Five […]

  14. sankofa says:

    Respect Okori, that’s how one can debate with out animosity, by respecting others opinions. I was going to comment on the Floyd Mayweather bashers, but I should let you as moderator deal with them. They grow repetitive and tiring.

  15. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @sankofa: it’s gonna happen with the Pac bashers too. Not Burundi tho. But please, i’m begging, someone roll in here and start throwing slurs around about Pacquiao and stuff. Watch. I wish you would.

  16. Big Man says:

    I take y’all ain’t hear what Bernard had to say about this issue, right?

  17. Ron Glover says:

    I heard it and I disagree with it.

  18. Okori Wadsworth says:

    I heard it and B-Hop couldn’t be more wrong if he wanted to be.

  19. KevDog says:

    I want the fight to happen so I can glot to MODI about Pac kicking Floyd’s ass.

  20. KevDog says:


  21. Okori Wadsworth says:

    I concur with this sentiment, Doc.

  22. sankofa says:

    LoL! Okori! KevDog! Put the bottle down. Recognize greatness in money man. (throws the gauntlet down)

  23. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @sankfoa: Here’s the thing. I don’t like fighters who drag their opponents to the final bell. Never did. Being a skilled boxer doesn’t mean that when a guy’s ready to go you don’t get him out of there. Floyd is all too happy to be like “I won 120-108” instead of pushing the issue when he can.

    He’s great. But his type of greatness is in no way appealing to me.

  24. Burundi says:

    @Okori: I’m sure you’re aware that there are some boxers that pride themselves in closing each eye or opening cuts over both and splitting each lip. They take cruel delight in punishing a guy the whole entire fight or simply out classing them as Sweet Pea had done countless times. That Chavez fight, for instance, was a case-in-point. At no time did he hurt Chavez, but he hit him at will and totally outclassed him. I started watching that fight in a strip club and, I was the only one watching the fight, initially, ’til cats started hearing me yell cuz The Pride of the Tidewater Area started doin’ his thang. By the end of that bout, everyone, and I mean, everyone joined in watching the fight. Of course, the previous Main Events were pissed, lol, but hey, a great fight (and that was a great fight) trumps all else. Lastly, Okori, I get your stylistic quibble, but there’s something to be said for hitting someone anytime you feel like it, but having them swinging at air. It made me grow to appreciate hearing the losing boxer say, “But he never hurt me at all the entire fight…” with their face looking like Hell.

    Once again, upon further contemplation, I stand behind PBF getting out while the gettins good because I believe that the powers-that-be will take that perfect record from him if he ventures down this path, especially, precisely because they know he wants out. What better way to keep him in than to hang an L on him to get an even bigger payday on a rematch?

    Regarding B-Hop, I get what he is implicitly generalizing about Latin fighters. He’s more or less saying that they have a rhythm to them that is subject to being timed by the “slick” style of many Brothas who box here and we all’ve seen it before when boxers get the timing of Latin fighters down. It almost becomes like a slowly synchronizing dance, if you will. Despite that, Manny may very well be the aberration, the outlier. Perhaps the “juice” may do that for you…

  25. Jerold Wells Jr says:

    I believe the Jim Brown theory is relevant here. If I hit you hard enough, enough times, you’ll quit.

    No proof here, just a hunch. I dont think Pretty Boy can/will take punches. I say no proof bc I havent seen Floyd take shots. H doesnt get hit. Credit to him. Shane hit him in the early rounds and was completely outclassed afterwards.

    Pac is in great shape and will attack in the 10th just like he did in the 3rd. I dont believe in Floyd’s chin or will to absorb punishment.

    I’ve seen Pac take shots and still give em back.

    Sidenote: Paul Williams got knocked the f@#k out by Sergio Martinez. My goodness. Left Hook landed flush.

  26. HarveyDent322 says:

    @JW…saw the Williams-Martinez “fight” too and he did get knocked da f—k out. I’ve seen Williams last three fights and I’m less than impressed in someone who’s been hyped as a comer.

    Saw the Pac-Magarito fight too and I have to say it was an impressive victory by Pac-Man but he does take punishment that could tell on him if he fights an equally skilled fighter a la PBF Mayweather. The thing is that we don’t know if Mayweather can take what Pacquiao would bring or how bad his hands really are injured. They’d have to fight for us to know and I really don’t think despite the calls for it to happen that it will happen.

  27. Burundi says:

    @Jerold: The boxing greats were just that because they defied JB’s maxim. Exhibit A was Ali versus Foreman amongst many others with the point being that some folk just ain’t gonna let you hit them—even though you may be bigger and stronger than them. Ray Leonard exhibited that versus Hagler and Hearns. Thus, the David-Goliath undercurrent of boxing looms larger.

    Once again, I love it when the knockout artist is clearly out-thought, out-strategized and sometimes outclassed. I loved it when Buster Douglas put it together and beat Tyson similarly to how Ali did Foreman. I’d root for PBF to win in a likewise fashion, but he must be able to counter-punch at will in order to do so—especially when a dude is juicing.

    In the same vein of losing the desire of seeing NFL players injured, I like that my favorite boxers didn’t really injure folk too badly—and, I really root for the fight not to happen because I like the idea of PBF going out on top. Let the haters hate…

  28. Okori Wadsworth says:

    I was reading the latest edition of the Ring magazine with the Ring 100 in it, and I couldn’t help but notice that they think Floyd and Manny will fight in 2011.

    I also couldn’t help but notice that they have Andre Ward behind Lucian Bute. I think Ward handles Bute.

  29. ks says:

    I think some of you are getting caught up in Pac hype because of his crowd pleasing style and underestimating PBF. I don’t see Pac’s pace overwhelming PBF at all. It’s sort of tailor made for a counterpuncher the caliber of PBF.

    I see the fight going as follows; Pac comes out swinging as usual, PBF jabs and counters and ties him up to settle him down and takes over. Pac won’t stop throwing punches but importantly, he’s going to miss and get hit more than he ever has before.

  30. Mizzo says:

    This would be my comment. Almost word for word KS.

  31. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @KS and Mizzo: Let me ask you one question. When Pacquiao tags PBF clean (because if a 37-year-old Shane Mosley can do it, Pac damned sure can), what will happen? Because Pac will get after him and make him fight.

    I don’t underestimate PBF at all. I underestimate this conservative, defensive-minded, low-activity VERSION of him. if he melds his defensive skills with the kind of combination punching he showed at lighter weights, forget it. He’s unbeatable.

  32. MODI says:

    For reasons others have stated, I don’t believe it possible for a man with the defensive brilliance of Mayweather to lose to Pacquiao by decision. If a slow guy like Margarito can get quality shots in, you can bet that Floyd could pot shot him all night. …

    …However, I can’t get that picture out of my mind of Shane buckling Floyd’s knee in round 2 before being dominated all night. So we know it could happen, and we know that Pac will be a much better finisher than Shane. So I think that the entire fight comes down to whether Pac can catch Floyd with that one big punch. If he does, it’s a knockout. If he doesn’t, Floyd likely out skills him to a one-sided decision. Either way, it will likely not be a close fight. I figure Pac has a 33% chance to land that one big punch, so I’m betting on Floyd.

  33. MODI says:

    hey okori, it is just not true that the Floyd camp is isolated in their suspicion of Pacman and steroids. others have been outwardly vocal with probably none more than Paulie Malignaggi who spoke in great depth about what he and many other boxers feel.

    You make a good point about his legs being the source of his power, but there is just not a lot of precedence for fighters becoming MORE powerful when increasing their weight. Throw in that during the first negotiations, he wouldn’t budge from a 24-day window for a blood-test with 50 mil on the table, and suspicions are well-founded.

    Now to this day, it is unclear what happened in the second negotiations as both camps have said different things. Either way, I truly believe that this fight will happen.

    I also believe that the Floyd-Shane precedence for steroid testing never got the praise that it deserved. It is the first time in virtually any sport where the fighters themselves and not some comission raised the bar on testing for PEDs. Boxing has no blood-testing which eliminates potential to detect HGH use among other things. Had two superstar baseball players done what Floyd-Shane did, they would have been lauded up the ass by all of mainstream media forever… But Floyd gets no love. there are essentially one or two reporters who explain Floyd’s side, and the rest have treated Pac with kid gloves.

    BTW, bring it on kevdog!

  34. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @MODI: and Paulie said Sugar Ray Robinson was overrated, so forgive me if I don’t jump headlong to agree with him.

    But i did misstate. More people than I realized did mention it.

    And here’s a question: What if Manny cuts Floyd? not even knocks him down but cuts him and hurts him? Do we know anything about what Floyd’s corner will do during times of adversity to keep Floyd from losing his crap? Because, when he fought Jose Luis Castillo the 1st time (a fight I believe he lost), his corner basically did nothing but sit on their hands during that fight when Castillo’s pressure and strength were wearing on Floyd.

  35. MODI says:

    Okori, it’s a good question about the cuts even if I believe that Pac can’t hit him often enough for cuts to be a major issue. But of course, one well-placed punch can cause cuts. I’m not sure what his corner will do, but I hope that his Dad is in there some where.

  36. MODI says:

    I like Burundi’s reference of the Pryor-Arguello fight as stylistically Pryor and his punching from all angles is reminiscent of Pacquiao. And while Arguello was a defensive great, I just believe that Floyd is superior to Arguello which is why I don’t agree with Burundi’s conclusion. Sugar Ray and Duran also comes to mind.

    About B-Hop’s comments, when read in their entirety without being misconstrued, he makes some well-founded points about the generally “slick” and scientific style that is part of the predominant historical and cultural style of African-American fighters going back to Joe Gans and Jack Johnson. His comments are also based on his own experience with Tito and Kelly Pavlik. Both were heavily favored fighters, both had more power and athletic ability, and both got waxed because Bernard simply out-thought and out-skilled them.

    Floyd, B-Hop, Roy Jones, Shane, Sweet Pea could all pick stronger guys apart. The closest thing that Pac has fought to a top African-American fighter stylistically was Juan Manuel Marquez — the one guy who gave Pac trouble. And B-Hop is not the first to bring this up either. A couple years back when Nate Campbell had a title (by upsetting favored, stronger, and then-undefeated Juan Diaz), Campbell’s trainer called Pac out for not fighting AA fighters. This also came after a relatively mediocre AA fighter (Zahir Rahim) used his savvy style to completely outclass and upset Erik Morales. So who did Pac fight next? Rahim? Nope. Erik Morales of course!

    Now don’t get me wrong, if I am Pac’s promoter I’m going after paydays and brawlers like Morales and Barerra and not touching Rahim or Campbell, however, let’s not act as if Pac’s opponents haven’t been deliberately picked to suit his style, and that those most deserving who never received shots were African-American fighters.

    Meanwhile, Margarito — a man who was last seen getting waxed by Shane Mosley, and a man who should rightfully be banned from the sport — gets the big payday. For years I have heard this (true) criticism of Floyd cherry-picking opponents, but somehow it takes B-Hop to bring any attention to the fact that Pac also has smart promoter

  37. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @MODI: And, for the record, Arquello was slower than Mayweather is, but was also a harder puncher and one of the best finishers ever. When he hurt you, your ass was gone. he was a textbook puncher of the type we dont have too many of.

    And if you want to bring this up you could easily argue he should have fought Mark “Too Sharp” Johnson or Tim Austin when they were near each other. Actually, I would have wanted to see that fight.

    But seriously Paulie: Sugar Ray Robinson overrated? Good lord almighty. You could tell me the sky is blue, and I would want confirmation.

  38. sankofa says:

    @Okori: Just because old Pualie made an asinine statement like that shouldn’t make his observation about Pacquiao to be derided. Not when others have made the same observations.

    People say that they may fight, but the issue of testing will always be in the fore front of this fight. If Pacquiao agrees to testing, will they compromise on a non Olympic testing?, Floyd appears adamant about that and as MODI said set a precedent with with Shane. Will they compromise on a cut off date? If he takes the test how will his cycle ( if he is on one) be affected?

    Then there is the fact he has stated that he will retire in three years… and Floyd’s legal troubles and conclusion is up in the air at the moment.

    Finally there is the sphincter of the real problem with the negotiation…that Richard head in Bob Arum, who Manny serves.

    ” Yesterday I lied but today I am telling the truth”… or some bull shit like that!

  39. Okori Wadsworth says:

    I don’t care what it takes, Sankofa. I just want to see the fight. That’s all I care about.

  40. sankofa says:

    heh! heh!

    Just saying… what the fan wants is not necessary what the insiders are doing. But it is still and intriguing prospect, no?

  41. MODI says:

    Okori, good points on Arguello… Floyd’s better spped is what is important, and knockout power is a non-issue as I would never expect Floyd to KO Pac.

    And ditto Sankofa on this “shoot the messenger” stuff on Malignaggi. Didn’t Jose Canseco teach us all a lesson on the perils of shooting the messenger? Now they’re trying to do the same crap with Floyd Landis in relation to untouchable Lance (notice how rarely Greg Lemond is brought up). Now, in fairness, that doesn’t mean that Malignaggi is correct as he is just making observations, but we should take his observations for the merits that they rest on, and nothing more. He also spoke for many others in boxing circles.

    Also, Malignaggi likely paid a huge price for speaking up because he was on the short list of Pac opponents before he opened up his mouth. For that alone, he deserves our respect. Stylistically, he is somewhat close to Floyd, but also absolutely no risk as Paulie can’t knockout Glass Joe. He is the perfect pre-Floyd practice opponent.

  42. ks says:


    Nah, I’m not buying the “What happens “when” Pac catches Floyd or What if Pac cuts Floyd…” scenarios. The problem with the first part of that premise is not the assumption that since Mosely caught Floyd, Pac will, it’s the assumption that Floyd will fight the same way against Pac as he did against Mosely. That’s not likely because he won’t have to be nearly as aggressive as he was against Mosely since Pac will come strongly to him. The cut thing is just speculation.

    The big problem with your first scenario is that you have it backwards. The more likely “when” is what happens when Pac gets hit consistently and has his attack blunted? Sure, as MODI pointed out there is a possibility that Pac could catch Floyd but, it’s pretty certain that Floyd will hit Pac easily and avoid most of his punches. I suspect Pac is going to join the long list of guys who’ve fought guys like Floyd, and 12-15 rounds later, wondered why they just couldn’t “get off”.

  43. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @KS: here’s the one problem with this. The one stylle Floyd has always struggled with is pressure fighters. He did not like his first fight with Jose Luis Castillo ( a fight I thought he lost) because Castillo backed him into the corner and roughed him up. The best work Oscar De La Hoya did in their first fight was when he pressured him. All of that in-close shoulder rolling stuff doesn’t work when a guy is right on top of you, landing punches to the openings he leaves.

    And if nothing else Manny is a pressure fighter. he swarms. he is always on top of you. and Freddie Roach is a wonderful strategist. I’m sure he has noticed every flaw Floyd has.

  44. MODI says:


    What did you think of B-Hop tonight? Pretty amazing performance if you ask me. Despite the flash knockdowns, i had BHop winning. I’m ready for the rematch! But Pascal didn’t sound like he wanted any more of the old man…