Victor Ortiz, Floyd Mayweather And The History Of The Welterweight Upset

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Floyd Mayweather is one of the best fighters in the world. Let’s get that out of the way right now. Now if you want to argue the degree to which he’s better than, say Nonito Donaire or Sergio Martinez that’s an argument we can have. But he is by any objective measure, one of the best fighters in the world, and one of the best pure boxers any of us have ever seen. And next Saturday night, live on HBO PPV you’ll get to see him do what he does best against Victor Ortiz. Or will you?

See that highlight video I linked above? That’s the Floyd Mayweather we all saw at his peak - a blinding combination of hand speed and defense. Simply put - at his apex, you weren’t hitting him and he was tagging you with beautiful combinations. The late Diego Corrales and the late Arturo Gatti could speak to what it was like to fight Floyd Mayweather at the apex of his powers. But as time has went on, Floyd stopped being that explosive blend just mentioned. If I may be permitted to blend metaphors here for a moment, complete apex-level Floyd Mayweather was like Pedro Martinez. He was just playing a different game than everyone else was.

But now – just a tad past his peak he’s become a bit like the Parcells’ Giants. He doesn’t have the tools to be nearly as explosive anymore so he relies on ring generalship, an offense that is more about doing only what he knows will work, and an equally stingy defense. He relies on the fact that he will almost never make the kind of mistakes that will come back and haunt him.

The main thing, though, is that for it to work you have to be able to rely on your opponent to make the kind of mistakes that will give you what you need. Will Victor Ortiz give him what he needs?

Judging by that fight above, the answer is yes. In fact, if you were judging this on every single fight that the two of them have ever had, the answer still remains the same. And it’s yes.

But as you go back through history and take a look at all of the upsets in boxing you’ll notice something. Most of them happen at the welterweights.

Why? Because, since the dawn of the modern era, the welterweights have been the most complete fighters. It is a division second only to the lightweights only in terms of providing us with great fighters, and great fights. And strangely we have a lot of upsets to look at.

Jose Napoles, a charter member of the boxing hall of fame, fell victim to the upset bug not once but twice. First to Billy Backus, a man whose claim to fame before this was being related to Carmen Basilio. Fine, that happens to everyone. It’s a bad night. But to have it happen again when he fought in Mexico against John H. Stracey? That’s a freaky thing.

Ok, so perhaps Napoles doesn’t work for you. Maybe this one will.

Donald Curry was the man for a time in the mid 1980′s. In fact, you had people believing that he could become a triple champion (welter, junior middle, and middleweight). All he had to do was beat Lloyd Honeyghan, the best welterweight in Europe? What happened you ask? Simple, he couldn’t do it.

Strangely Lloyd Honeyghan later on got caught by the legendary Jorge Vaca.

It’s gone on a lot. But the question is this: Will it go on again Sunday night?

My prediction: No. Victor Ortiz will get some good work done. But truthfully, you can’t expect Floyd to lose to a guy who went life-and-death with Andre Berto.

37 Responses to “Victor Ortiz, Floyd Mayweather And The History Of The Welterweight Upset”

  1. MODI says:

    Nice write-up sir. I just don’t see Ortiz doing much because of the last line you stated. The gap between Berto and Ortiz is huge, so I see Floyd frustrating Ortiz all night while possibly getting a KO due to attrition.

    Now let’s talk about Floyd’s “apex”. While at his age he could drop off at anytime, I don’t know if I have seen anything recently to indicate he is not still at his apex. His win vs. Marquez was as impressive a domination as any fight that I have ever seen prior. And Shane was a domination minus that one punch where he got tagged. While the knee buckling is certainly significant, I don’t know if that one punch has anything to do with age as much as a great punch that could happen at any point in one’s career in the sport of boxing

  2. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @MODI: I’d argue the apex was from Corrales through to his debut as a welterweight.

    From there on, it’s been increasingly about what he could prevent his opponent from doing and less about what he could do himself.

  3. MODI says:

    okori, okay let’s agree that Corrales was his apex. I’m just saying that he is still there. I would put his fight against Marquez as brilliant as any fight of his career. While missing the Corrales ending, I don’t know the last time I have seen one elite fighter make another one look so much like a wild-swinging child who donned boxing gloves for the very first time. It was more dominant and humiliating than a brutal Pacquiao knockout IMHO.

    To that point, I just came across the best piece on Mayweather that I have ever read. You won’t find this one on ESPN:

    http://www.boxing.com/news/comments/the_enigma_of_floyd_mayweather

  4. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @Modi: Here’s the thing. Corrales was knocked down 6 times and stopped because his corner threw the towel in.

  5. “If I was 50 years younger I would kick your ass!”

    HILARIOUS!!!

    Merchant didn’t say NOTHING about the head butt though huh?

    MONEY!!

    Black Mustard at its finest.

    That’s what Ortiz’s punk ass gets. Deliberate headbutt and got CAUGHT snoring like a mug.

    Cheaters never prosper…

    PROTECT YOURSELF AT ALL TIMES!

    They will come after Floyd like no other athlete now. Ortiz will have the gold carpet laid down wherever he walks for eternity.

  6. MODI says:

    “One-for-one”

    Every boxer knows the code — including Ortiz. Beyond that, I’ve never seen a happier fighter after a knockout! Ortiz knows he should have protected himself, he knows this outcome is better than if it went more rounds, and he knows that he can possibly turn this into a rematch for millions.

    The guy who mishandled this was Cortez…
    ————————

    TECHNICALLY Merchant said about the head butt to Ortiz “so you’re saying you’re just trying to jump on him and your head collided” and then he said to Ortiz: “why are you apol (cut off), you seem apologetic.”

    This is worse than saying nothing. He excused the head butt. There are inadvertant headbutts and blatant dirty ones, and Merchant knows the difference. Ever since Merchant has been covering boxing he has treated black fighters like dirt whether it be PBF, Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., etc Floyd is right! HBO should have fired his ass long ago.

  7. sankofa says:

    “It’s just that these fighters go into survival mode. Once they’re down on the scorecards or once they feel they have no chance of winning they go into survival mode”. –Floyd Mayweather

    Survival: The act or fact of surviving, especially under adverse or unusual circumstances.

    Just keep tapping that ass, tap that ass—Roger Mayweather

    John 44(of the European fantasy book) For Jesus Himself testified that a prophet has no honor in his own country. So when He came to Galilee, the Galileans received Him, having seen all the things that He did in Jerusalem at the feast; for they themselves also went to the feast.

    (sankofa’s version) So when Floyd came to the boxing scene, those who truly over stand the purity of the sweet science received Him, having seen all the things that he did, in 16 years of boxing superiority, at his fight; for they themselves also knew boxing.

    To date the only controversy regarding Floyd Mayweather is the fact that there are still assholes who hate him so much, they get apoplectic and start spewing so much illogical crap it would fill thousands of por-o-potties. His pure physical gifts, high IQ and a real man’s independence, causes lesser males with small dick syndrome to seek out acts of compensation ( spewing anti-African hatred) in order to make themselves feel good.

    @MODI, please do post on Floyd Mayweather, similar to what you did on Isaiah Thomas. The more even handed approach there is the more the haters will come across as snotty nose children with no upbringing.

  8. Ron Glover says:

    Four words: “Hand(s) down, Man down!”

  9. Okori Wadsworth says:

    Ok I have to say that none of this was Floyd’s fault, at least until the postfight interview. That ref is incompetent. I’ve been saying it for years. Other people are now finally seeing it.

    As far as the business with Mayweather post-fight goes, I think Merchant is crochety with everyone like that. And since Floyd doesn’t take criticism well, that means it becomes ugly fast.

  10. Because there should have been no criticism. Not one ounce. He’s an undefeated champion.

    I HOLLLLLERED when this went down because nothing I have ever seen in the sport was as premeditated as the lunging headbutt. That’s what the hell Ortiz gets. Period.

    I am so glad I left social networking because I know the assholes were in full force. Too many people want Floyd to go down and I’m sure the headbutt was LOVED when it happened by a huge number of people.

  11. MODI says:

    okori, Merchant is crotchety to be sure with everyone, but he has a long history of being downright disrespectful all the best African American fighters in ways that he is not with Latino or white fighters. As a fellow announcer, he has also been disrespectful to RJJ and Foreman in ways that go beyond the normal schtik of announcer disagreement. It is a continual pattern, and Floyd’s response was in response to that pattern. Floyd has said as much about Merchant racial double-standard in the past.

    …And then not one minute later, Merchant proves Floyd correct by a) his unprofessional “50 years” comment, and b) failing to hold Ortiz accountable for his head butt, and c) help to EXCUSE the headbutt. In Merchant’s mind the narrative of the bad guy PBF vs. the nice guy Ortiz trumped his very own eyesight.

    If I had the time, inclination, and videotape at my fingertips, I would put a damning 25 year montage of Merchant post-fight interviews together, and send it to all the execs at HBO who otherwise have the best product in mainstream sports (Real Sports with BG). His racism would be as crystal clear to all as it is to Floyd. Incidentally, I’d do the same for Knicks announcer Mike Breen.

  12. MODI says:

    @sankofa, I don’t know if you read the previous link I put up, but it is excellent if you haven’t

    @miz well, I hollered twice. Once at the head butt, and then in joy when Floyd told Merchant off! I loved it!

  13. ks says:

    MODI,

    You are speaking 100% truth. Larry Merchant has been pulling this racially biased crap for as long as I can remember and it’s good that somebody finally told him off. I love that Ellerbe stood behind Floyd and told Merchant – “You heard him”.

    I think one of the key reasons for the Mayweather hate is that his moniker – “Money” – is all too accurate for some. The black hat stuff is just cover. I was telling some cats while we were watching the undercard to look at the ring and notice the “Mayweather Promotions” sign. Dude is getting a piece of everything and his take from this fight is estimated to be $40-50 million. Can you recall any black fighter ever being in control like that? Hell, I can’t think of any fighter, other than ODLH, who was getting hit off like that.

    Insofar as the fight, Floyd was dominant. He was as sharp as ever and what really sets him apart are the overlooked technical skills like when he was walking Ortiz down because he knows most aggressive fighters can’t fight moving backwards.

    The end of fight drama was ridiculous. IMO, Ortiz was getting mopped and looking to quit. That insane headbutt was pretty much a Tyson ear biting moment. A lot of people are overlooking that he got KTFO while trying to give his 3rd apology. After the headbutt, he hugs and kisses Floyd then he apologized again when Cortez was taking a point away and finally he tried again when Cortez had said let’s go and Floyd wasn’t having it.

    After Floyd’s first shot, Ortiz was STILL looking toward the ref and I suspect he could have gotten up but was trying for the DQ.

  14. MODI says:

    ks, you know, a lot of people dislike Floyd for both right and wrong reasons, but what bothers me most from journalists is when out-of-ring dislike affects the assessment of him in the ring. And that just shouldn’t happen. And as far as being “dirty”, he has been remarkably a clean fighter throughout his career, no matter how much Ortiz trainer played up his elbows. More often than not, its his opponents who get dirty with Floyd when trying to survive.Floyd will rarely initiate any dirty fighting, but in the spirit of baseball’s “knockdown code” will retaliate when wronged.

    As for Ortiz, I think that you are right about Ortiz looking to quit. I honestly don’t think that he is the most mentally stable fighter in the world. Besides all of the over-the-top apologizing in the ring, we know that he blatantly quit against Marcos Maidana and then claims that he had no recollection of the fight afterwards. Before this fight he has never headbutted to my knowledge, and now he tried multiple times with the last one being egregious. Here is what Ortiz said after the Maidana fight:

    “I’m not going to go out on my back. I’m not going to lay down for nobody. I’d rather just stop when I’m ahead. That way, I can speak well when I’m older. I’m young, but I don’t think I deserve to get beat up like this. I’ve got a lot of thinking to do.”

  15. MODI says:

    And then there is a far more interesting (and plausible) theory that comes by way of “Manny” a commenter at boxing news”. The rest are his words:

    “Open Question: Was Floyd Mayweather vs Victor Ortiz fight was fixed?

    1. Ortiz headbutts Mayweather twice. First was hard to notice but if you rewind you will see. Second one was the one they agreed to work with because it was more noticeable.

    2. The referee looks away from the fighters for way too long. It’s as if he is protecting himself so if in the future he were to ever get questioned, he can simply say I was not looking. Any boxing referee knows that you keep your eye on the fighters at all times.

    3. Ortiz’s post fight attitude. He was HAPPY! For someone who had so much riding on the fight, that attitude simply did not match one of a fighter who just did the most regrettable thing in his life.

    4. Mayweather’s mention of a rematch (another cash cow for both).

    5. How Ortiz overdid the hugging. Ok he did it once, cool, but it seems like he kept on doing it so as to allow Floyd to continue with the preplan of sucker punching him.

    Ok now lets analyze this big fix from another angle. Think to yourselves, what is the best way to fix the fight so as to allow both fighters to retain their dignity while allowing for a rematch and a lot of media hype. The answer is exactly what you saw unfold before your eyes. Keep watching the fight on youtube with all of this in mind and I’ll promise you that you will see the truth. Nothing is real anymore in this world. From ‘reality’ shows to big sport matches, they are all businesses with investors and money at stake. Profits are the only thing that matter, not an athletes dignity. Please feel free to add your thoughts to this and/or dispute anything you feel may be incorrect.

    I would also like to add how when Ortiz got sucker punched the first time he simply stood there waiting for the second punch. A person that has trained non-stop for the past god knows how long is prepared to react in an instant. At least move or put your arm up to defend your face, but no Ortiz simply stood there and took the hit. ALSO, if you watch past Ortiz fights, he NEVER headbutts! Fighters that headbutt are usually serial headbutters, as in its a move they constantly do. This was basically Ortiz’s first ever headbutt. Which brings me back to the fact that a headbutt is the ONLY act that would warrant such a reaction like hugging and apologizing further allowing the opportunity to be sucker punched while being ‘unaware.’”

  16. Ron Glover says:

    If the roles were reversed and Floyd got caught in a Wil E. Coyote moment they would be lining Victor Ortiz up for the Congressional Medal of Honor.

    The only the “vicious” regarding Ortiz is his in the ring stupidity.

  17. TeeDee says:

    Ortiz is responsible for the mess that occurred but yet, he get excused and Floyd gets the heat for the fiasco. And don’t get me started with Larry Merchant.

  18. Okori Wadsworth says:

    Ok. Let me turn this in another direction. If they fight (and it’s an if at this point) how many rounds do you guys give Manny? And give a reason why you’re going to give him 0 if you give him 0.

  19. MODI says:

    cosign Mr. Glover!

    Okori, I only see a Mayweather Pacquiao fight going one of two ways. I’d give it an 75% chance that Floyd outclasses and frustrates Pac the whole fight while winning 9 or 10 rounds because Floyd takes a couple of rounds off in the middle or wastes the first couple of rounds to feel Pac out.. Pac has never seen anything like Floyd or even cheap stylistic imitations (like a Nate campbell from a few years back). Besides Marquez, basically everyone Pac fights stands in front of him.

    The other 25% chance is that Pac knocks Floyd out. Shane proved that the leg could buckle, and if that same scenario were to occur, Pac would likely have finished Floyd where Shane still seemed tentative. That is the ONLY way you will get Floyd. Pac will not outskill him.

    I can’t imagine any other outcomes such as Pac winning a decision or Floyd knocking Pac out. Whatever happens, there should be a decisive winner!

  20. TC says:

    Great piece. Agree with Ron that if the roles were reversed there wouldn’t be enough channels on TV to accommodate all the folks who wanted to lament the shamefulness of Floyd’s actions. I don’t get to see enough fights, so if Ortiz is a first-time offender with re: to headbutting, seems reasonable to imagine that it could be fixed.

  21. sankofa says:

    @ MODI, thanks got that story.

    I am not sure why people would think this fight was fixed. Robert Garcia said he was mentally weak. Floyd hinted that he was mentally weak. After that fight when he gave up, people said he was mentally weak. Floyd has been known to make grown men act like scared women. See his quote in my earlier post. To imply that this was fixed would imply that Floyd was running a game on folks. Really? Money May takes his fight game seriously. If the haters agree or believe that he would protect his legacy, why be so blatant, when he was kicking ass and not even taking names. I think some folks should not listen to the talking heads because all they talk is shit. Just like that bitch ass Larry Merchant. If May can cuss out (and rightfully so) a jealous and disrespecting Mayweather Sir, well who the hell is that anti-African bitch?
    We folks act like we afraid to cuss out good for nothing “them folks” who have no compunction about raking us through the coals.

    And I disagree with people saying it is a close fight with pack guy. Mayweather will be tapping that ass like a porn star. It’s what he has always done to disrespecting suckers who refuse to bear witness. There were several disgraces perpetuated on Saturday.
    (1) Ortiz…nuff said
    (2) Danny Garcia…if you all paid attention, he talked up Floyd as being dirty BUT he also said the plan was to use the same alleged tactics and them some on Mayweather.
    (3) The announcers who accused Mayweather of unsportsmanlike behaviour and sucker punching that fool. Really? In a boxing match, you ‘all talking about sportsmanship. You ‘all every boxed?
    (4) The fan in attendance and the idiots not in attendance claiming to be fan. Fan of what exactly boxing or a Mr. Congeniality contest?

    While I would have wanted that fight to get to its natural conclusion, I think a re-match would be a waste of time to many people’s time. Move on, there is nothing to see here, fuck Pacquiao get your damn finances in order dude.

  22. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @Sankofa: I ask one question. Why? Why do you think it won’t be close?

    Just rolling up here, saying he’ll, and I quote “tap that ass like a porn star”, isn’t the level of discourse I was looking for. Give me a reason why, ‘Kofa.

  23. MODI says:

    “tap that ass like a porn star” …C’mon Okori! That was a good line!

    @okori, while I don’t think the fight was fixed, if there is a rematch, I would have to give it more weight… Latest I heard is that Floyd is looking at Amir Khan and Pacquiao.

    I can’t think of any even in sports that would excite me more than a Floyd-Pac fight. …You would have to go back to the 1980′s round-robin of SRL, Hearns, Hagler, and Duran to find fighters of such magnitude facing each other in their respective primes… It has been too long…

  24. MODI says:

    I meant “@sankofa”, not “@okori”…

  25. sankofa says:

    @Okori and MODI, Mayweather is:
    1. Taller.
    2. Heavier
    3. Is stronger (but wait for the test)
    4. Has a significant reach advantage
    5. Is the more skilled boxer
    6. Is the better defensive fighter
    7. The better tactician
    8. He is the more efficient striker
    9. He is the most accurate
    10. Has more to prove.

    Now I heard people say that Pacquiao is the busier more aggressive fighter and if you two men are as astute fight fans as you say you are, you will know that busy don’t mean much when the bigger, taller guy can neutralize your busyness by tying you up, take away your angles, stop hit you as Bruce lee would say (hitting you as you start your swing) etc. Even though it was 3 1/2 rounds you got a synapses of what Mayweather did to a stronger, aggressive and heavier fighter and will do to the smaller, shorter Manny Pacquiao.

    I am shocked that after Shane Mosley and now Ortiz people still insist that Floyd only bicycles around the ring. I think one of the best weapons Floyd Mayweather has as a fighter and is severely underrated is his economy of movement and the efficiency in accomplishing his goals. These goals include sticking the jab in your face, the hook off the jab, the lead right and doubling up of the right, hitting from different angles and being disciplined about all of the above. He is also the current undisputed master of hitting and not being hit and hitting before being hit.

    Also here is the deal with Manny Pacquiao. Clotty, Dela Hoya, Mosley, margoritto where all weight drained when they fought him. This is significant. If people think the Ortiz fight was fixed what would you say about the Clotty fight? Yet Clotty messed up his face from a turtle position. All these fighters including Cotto but except for Dela Hoya are fighters that stand in front of you and remember he Dela Hoya was weight drained. I can’t say that enough. I didn’t see the Mosley fight so I can’t comment other than to say, Freddy Roach refused to fight him till after Mayweather and at catch weight. Floyd Mayweather is not going to slug with Manny Pacquiao. He is going to box him using his height reach and technical skills. He is going to make him miss and neutralize his bull rush by tying him up and making him tired. Finally Pacquiao is not faster and is not in better shape, even as a younger man.

    That’s my view.

  26. MODI says:

    sankofa, I agree with your analysis and virtually every word you printed except point #3 (pac’s power comes from is thick legs — if not ‘roids), and if this discussion were taking place before the Mosely fight, I’d give Floyd a 99% chance of winning for those reasons. But instead I give him a 75% chance because boxing is a sport like none other where the more dominant fighter can lose over one faulty second. Michael Moorer completely outcassed old George Foreman for 10 rounds, but just not the last 10 seconds. That’s boxing.

    Before Shane’s big punch, we never ever saw Floyd’s knee buckle before. But now we know it could happen. And a knee bucking is even more worrisome than getting knocked down and getting back up. The latter alows time to recover while the former is more dangerous because you are still fighting without your legs or senses. A few times in his career, a well-placed left hook floored Ali, but he always got back up, but I can’t recall Ali’s knee ever buckling like that.

    That is my only concern with Pac, but in all liklihood I see Floyd dominating in an easier fashion than most are predicting.

  27. kos says:

    sankofa, MODI -

    I have to agree with thinking that Floyd would outclass Pacquiao in a fight. However, this sport being boxing with it’s history of bogus decisions, I can only say that I would hope that Floyd at least knocks him down, if not out. I wouldn’t leave it up to the judges the way folks feel about Floyd. 75% sounds about right.

    Floyd picked up his defense for this fight. The only thing about fighters being good defenders, they sometimes lose rounds if they aren’t as busy (i.e. Winky Wright, Pernell Whitaker), but I don’t see that happening with Mayweather.

    MODI -

    I’m glad that you said the thing about Pacquiao’s legs being where his power came from. I saw that b.s. on ESPN’s “Sports Science”. Now, every fighter gets some of that power from his legs. But, Floyd brings up a good point that guys just don’t move up in weight not being able to knock out flyweights, and can knock out welterweights.

    Normally, with Floyd being American, you’d have Americans squarely behind him. You’d have other Americans questioning Pacquiao’s apparent power surge.

    This goes to show the level of hate at Floyd. You don’t even hear anyone in the mainstream press agreeing with Floyd. He’s essentially a man on an island when it comes to most boxing fans reading and listening to the mainstream press and announcers, not wanting to give him any credit.

  28. MODI says:

    You know what bothers me most about all the Floyd hate? Like Barry Bonds, their biases are stopping them from witnessing genius in its purest form. we only get a couple of lifetime opportunities to see an artistry at this level and racism is messing it all up…

    KS, so true on the Floyd/roids thing… After a decade of hearing reporters talk about the immorality of steroids in baseball, why aren’t these same people falling all over themselves to congratulate Floyd for taking his own personal initiative to make sure that boxing is clean and raising the bar to include blood testing? The contracts he signed with Ortiz and Mosely raised the standard on testing. No commision necessary. No sanctioned reports needed from Bud Selig. No warnings from Roger Goodell. It is the first sport where an ATHLETE is driving the clean-up process. SO WHERE IS THE LOVE!!!

    But actually the opposite has happened. He has been largely labeled a coward. And Floyd is not alone in thinking Pac is suspect. many boxers fel the same way with Paulie Malignaggi being the most vocal (which incidentally may have cost him millions in a lost shot against Pac)

  29. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @MODI: The thing that bothers me about the whole “Manny’s got to be on the gas” thing is that it’s a zero-sum game. There are no other reasons for what he’s been doing other than he’s on the gas.
    Couldn’t be that he has real nutritional advice and intervention for the first time in his life (Not everyone from Thailand is Pongsaklek Wonjongkam, and not everyone from the Philippines gets the advantages Flash Elorde, Manny Pacquiao, and even Luisito Espinosa got).

    Couldn’t be that he has strength and conditioning coaches who are world-class at what they do, a phenomenon that was started by Evander Holyfield. Couldn’t even be that he’s trained by Freddie Roach who was trained by the master Eddie Futch. None of that matters. He’s got to be on the gas.

    Is he on the gas? I’m not sure. I’m honestly saying that. But let’s not pretend it’s the only reason.

    @Sankofa: And I could argue, and have actually, that the one type of fighter Floyd doesn’t like is a pressure fighter who goes to the body. The first Jose Luis Castillo fight, when Floyd had his hardest night in a while? Jose kept going to the body. Hell, Victor Ortiz did it & got some good work done when he did.

  30. MODI says:

    Okori, I’m not saying that Pac has to be juicing. It is quite possible that he is not. I’m just saying that he has to be suspected. Guys don’t usually get stronger when they move up, and start knock guys out silly. If there is a precedent there, I don’t know of it. Yeah, Holyfield moved up, but he didn’t suddenly become a KO artist. It was far more common for him to go the distance as a heavy whereas he was cleaning up as a light heavy…

    Like Barry Bonds once was… What I am saying is that Pac has gotten a free pass from media, and even worse, Floyd has gotten no credit for what sports writing moralists supposedly want.

    One is the good guy, the other is the villain, and nothing seems to be able to change that narrative…

  31. sankofa says:

    @Modi Are you familiar with boxer Clyde Grey? He is a former Canadian welterweight champion and the first man to take Tommy Hearns to 10 rounds. A defensive genius and someone I have trained with as a youngster. Among the numerous sports I was involved in is Boxing and several forms of martial arts, including kickboxing. I can say I have hurt guys punching and kicking and have had some hurt put on me and I can say this, the power in the legs thing can go both ways, yes it can, but Tommy Hearns for one had stick legs and …!!!!

    You don’t necessary need large legs to have knockout power. You learn to transform from the ground up, but the hips are the fulcrum and having a tight core helps with the whiplash effect.

    @ Okori Floyds contention about recognizing talent from early is valid. Based on Manny’s earlier bouts, you see someone on his way to a middling career. Then all of a sudden there is an upsurge in not only skills, but stamina and power. This is what most people are talking about and at an age when you are supposedly set as a fighter. People talk about his knock out power; Shane Mosley who has fought some serious punchers, commented after the fight –numerous times- that he has NEVER been hit like that before. I mentioned Floyd’s economy of punching. Coupled with the whip like effect from the hip is where the power comes from. Observing the swings (punches) of two, should give you a sense of whose power is supposed to be real, using biomechanics.

    Regarding nutrition and training, your point is valid. But we forget that his trainer has a history of being connected to steroids, but this is a society that will big up Victor Conte, but kill Barry Bonds. And Victor is getting involved in a sport, many acknowledge is DIRTY! Again regarding what Floyd said about early talent. I met sprinter Ben Johnson when he was 14, grew up as friends hung out with him, though he was more my younger brothers age and more tight with him. Now some of us establish young sprinters use to wonder who the hell is this kid they’re talking about…but after he started smoking cats left right and centre, we became witnesses. He had natural speed, but could left a plate of spaghetti to save his life…and stamina? Forget it. After Charlie Francis and Dr. Astaphan got done with him, he was lifting more than some Olympic power lifters. Contrast that with Donovan Bailey (yeah I am calling names) in high school was getting beaten by girls. Took a year of track, promising to return with a vengeance and the rest is an Olympic and world record.

    If you show phenominal growth using chemicals you can get buy somewhat with natural talent and proper trainging. but if you never had the talent or the early potential, people will eventually put 2 and 2 together.

    I sometimes do personal training and agree that supplements and nutrition and advance in training does help, but Manny Pacquiao and especially Bob Arum does his fighter no favours by trying to turn the test into Floyd trying to control his fighter. Top Rank puts enormous and bogus stipulations in all their fights to give Pacquiao an advantage, but people love him because they hate Mayweather more. They have been making so many excuses but more people are now asking the question, why don’t you take the test? Honestly we don’t know for sure, but you’re not helping the suspicious minds with all the excuses and the media is just fuelling that shit.

    @Okori . The first Jose Luis Castillo fight? Is that all you have? That’s it? What about the second? What was the difference? They were the same fighters, same styles, what was the difference? Ortiz? Man, people are still saying Ortiz’s bulrush and wild flailing were evidence of him turning the tide. What I say was an aggressive fighter, trying to use his size and strength to bull a smaller cat and getting nowhere. Look at the punch counts. What did Floyd do when he started bull rushing him, backup on the rope (when people said that was a no, no. Then he proceeded to block his punches, turned into Neo dodging bullets and tied up Ortiz and then backed him up and tattooed his face. The name of the game is hit and not be hit. The fans are more in love with the brawler types than true aficionados of the sports, who celebrate pure skills over brutishness.

  32. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @Sankofa: The reason why I have no other examples of it is that, largely after that fight, Floyd has avoided the types of guys who would do that. And I remember watching the 2nd fight between Mayweather-Castillo and being infuriated that Castillo was stubborn and stupidly fighting on the outside. Ricky Hatton couldn’t do it because Joe Cortez’s fool ass was apparently determined to prevent infighting. I’m not saying Pacquiao would win but to imply that Floyd would win inside 4 rounds (as I have heard) is ridiculous.

    @MODI: I can’t say, one way or the other, whether Manny is on the gas. But there are good reasons for this. Boxing is one of those rare sports where dudes can turn from anonymous stars to serious stars when the moments come together. And lest you forget, his star-making moment came when he pulverized Lehlo Ledwaba. That was when he was a junior featherweight.

  33. MODI says:

    sankofa, I’m not familiar with Clyde Grey, but no one could question the point about Hearns power or his stick legs!

    …”You learn to transform from the ground up”… please elaborate…

    Okori, if I recall, Floyd was also having serious hand problems in the Castillo fight and that can’t be dismissed

  34. Okori Wadsworth says:

    @MODI: That’s true. He was. But from me remembering that fight, he looked ill-prepared to handle pressure. He didn’t even appear to know how to get off the ropes without throwing punches.

    The thing that would concern me about Floyd (ducks a lightning bolt) is that he goes back to the ropes WILLINGLY. It’s great when you can make it work, but it’s a high-risk, low-reward gamble.

  35. sankofa says:

    @MODI….”You learn to transform from the ground up”… please elaborate…

    imagine the power of a sprinter coming out of the starting blocks. That’s what i mean by that statement, which is generated up through the hips in a whip like fashion.

  36. kaibeia says:

    I have like mayweather’s fight,move in many ways that i wish i can meet him and become one of the best fighter in the world lol

  37. kaibeia says:

    I like his move in many ways .His skill was good to me because im keen in fighting and i’m participate one of the boxing best fighter so i have learn some of the move from his skill thanks for your hard work and i hope we will be great fighter

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